Pegasus News - Dallas / Fort Worth

Jason Rice, says:

Good jump....

Definitely - AT you're far from alone in the thread domination racket. I feel very privileged to still have a login after some of the bickers I've been in this year.

An "ignore user" feature is tempting as all get out.... but if I'd had it I would have hastily invoked it several times and never have realized Doyle is just a nose-tweaker and not a preternatural jerk -- but that's just a for instance. I consider a couple of former collisions as fortunate as I now offline use some of the people I would be filtering as resources and - dare I say it - friendships.

So as much as I'd vote "yes" to an ignore, its lack forces some grownup behavior that is positive.

Ok, maybe a "I'm posting clutter" option isn't quite the positive sounding thing you want. I do know that different levels of "Verbosity" is handy in logfiles and compiler results. Terminology-wise it might be off-putting, but letting a post be assigned a "Verbosity" level or "Pertinence" defaulting to "Full ON" would allow a self censoring at a fun level that allows a user pref to filter.

Dunno, but a full out "ignore" is not much better for discussion than full moderation. We're already kind of close to an echo chamber at times (especially when you Apple weenies get going - sheesh --- btw, Miko - Mac or Win crash?)

Collin Gouldin, says:

people don't utilize RSSs enough. not just on this site, but all over... i can easily filter through comments and stories i don't want to read (although maybe this isn't too good for ad based sites.. but then again, neither is ad block)

Jason Rice, says:

Jeremy - techie - yep, sorry. Tried to keep that under wraps here, but I oughta come clean. Realtime graphics. 60 Hz or bust at resolutions to choke a horse.

The comment blizzards we see here and there are off putting. But frankly, the "Suggest removal" is such a boon to allow mob regulation that I just feel it may be perfectly adequate. Sure, my verbosity angle is warped and lots of dev work... and frankly I'd a HELL of a lot rather see you guys efficiently serving ads (to avoid more intrusive forms of paying your bills) than a dang set of very intellectually rewarding "filter code" <yawn>.

Ok, let's say Bob posts his phone number and a plea for a date Friday on every single comment thread through the week. Well, Tom thinks he's a doofus and wants it stopped. And let's say there are twenty Toms.

Should Tom(s) badger Bob? - further clogging the comments? Hmm. Not good and if it were a party, there'd be a fist fight. Bad.

Should Tom(s) badger Mike? Mike needs to run a paper, not babysit a party that won't really result in a fist fight because it's virtual.

Could Tom(s) ping Bob and say "Doofus, man, I'm gonna start submitting your phone number to a Fundamentalist S&amp;M dating service if you keep spamming my playground"? Well, some places Bob now has Tom's email and just subscribed him to "Homely Men Dressing as Shirley Temple Monthly." <font size="1">(not that there's anything wrong with either of those ::roll eyes:: )</font>. But since in the Pegasus setup, the sender of a message to a user is still protected, that's a valid way to handle it.

I've been looking into the effort of developing a discussion/news forum for our theater and the management nightmare is daunting. You can "Do" what your talking about or police people talking about what you should be doing. It's not a nice trade-off.

I like ya'll's priority lists above.

This particular schism is a social one and I don't see a way around those. The features you're considering can help the presentation of things, but it comes down to how people treat a party. The loud drunk is a loud drunk. The guy that won't shut up, is what he is. The belligerent know-it-all is that. (That'd be yours truly btw)

And Mike - fate is getting you for scoring Us3 over Fagen. You've been warned.</yawn>

Jason Rice, says:

there was a facetious &lt;yawn - shudder&gt; after "filter code" , btw, but I always forget about the scorn Markdown has for &lt; &gt;

Travis Bush, says:

Ok..here goes. First, I apologize if any of you feel insulted by my previous comments.

It is worth noting when I started posting here, I couldn't figure out what the heck A.T. was talking about. Somehow it mattered that this odd fellow might dare post something in a discussion of something I might consider important. It took me some time to come to the realization that he was merely expressing himself in a setting that he was not used to. The just coined adage, "you can't teach an old dog new Internet tricks" might just apply. That is when I came up with the idea of drawing tidbits of history out of him. I could have had back and forth sessions with him and compiled it all in one big Q&amp;A format, but this didn't seem to fit his style, much less lead to the possibility of the topic actually getting any attention or feedback. Using the comment feature seemed much more likely to generate views and engage him further into the subject matter.

I wouldn't have gotten nearly so irritated by earlier comments, if I hadn't corresponded with Alexander outside comments on Peg News. He can speak for himself, but it is my feeling that he regrets his own comments, and this is simply uncalled for in my opinion.

As well, some users seemingly forget that comments generate revenue for Peg News. Banter between users should be promoted and not stifled simply because it doesn't suit some to have to skip it and either post a comment that is more relevant to the topic, or ignore it altogether.

Doyle said something in a previous comment about why people respond to content here and I think it is important to examine that for a moment. Is your main concern commenting to others in regard an article, making your own view known without input from others, or simply responding to others that comment? This is an important distinction that I don't think some have considered. It is also the crux of the matter, in my opinion, because there should be room for all of the above.

Let us just for a moment consider if there were no "Latest Comments" view. What would one do then? One would most likely have to actually look for articles of interest, browse more than one page on Peg news, AND have the option of submitting a comment regardless of what other users have posted. I know this seems a terrible burden, but in reality it is a simple matter of common sense, and a matter of business for PN.

It might help if there were temporary stories or posts by users that didn't have to be approved, where the "chatter" or "inane posting" could occur, and simply disappear after a certain time. I think this would help with some of the perceived problem, but it would also maintain hit generation for ads. That isn't to say it will stop the joking, because heaven only knows how much utter comedy is created by the goings on in our city. Getting rid of snark is like trying to cure Doyle of that itchy rash that simply won't go away.

Finally, the ignore button. I will be blunt when I say that the Peg News community is WAY too small for it to be effective. It will only work to please those who have no interest in a community atmosphere.

Jason Rice, says:

Travis, I personally felt under-insulted. You can do better.

Collin Gouldin, says:

PC JERK! ... (there, how was that?)

Jason Rice, says:

We prefer the term "PC bigot" (case sensitive)

And if this has the chance of a "Feature Request List" -- a historical version of avatars might be fun. Some comments are better understood with the user's CURRENT icon at the time. I was just reminded of a certain David Clone Invasion of old now lost to posterity.

Travis Bush, says:

Gigabigot!

Jason Rice, says:

Nice ring. Works in Windows and most distros of Linux. Let's go with it!

Scott Doyle, says:

I've learned to live with my rash and, in time...will appreciate its constant reminder that I'm as human as internet hippies like T-Bush.

Threaded comments sounds terrible to me. Mostly b/c I'll be the first to admit I've typed up countless comments which didn't get posted once I realized contribution was lacking and I may even hinder topical discussion (disregard this when I'm trolling, see above regarding human status). Encouraging senseless babble will devalue everyone's time and efforts, imo.

Miko: Reputation: Helping bring consistently good commenters to the fore and making hit-and-run one-off commenters, particularly those posting reviews, more apparent.

I'm not sure I've seen slipperier slopes, sir. Fair warning. Seems this would quickly devolve into a popularity contest if not approached with great caution.

Jeremy: Incorporate comments into Daily You interest.

Needs elaboration. But the initial thought = less room in my pants.

On the same note, I'd like to pull a Miko here and inquire if pagination can't be bested. Any chance we could condense every 25 or so comments in a Gmail-esque fashion so that if I need to reference them, I'll expand...otherwise they're hidden? I've had a few beers and would rather not try to explain further, ask me tomorrow if you need clarification (I'm relatively sure it can't happen, just brainstorming).

J-Rizzle: I've rocked the same avatar since they were available, btw. What confuses me more is when someone gets verified who, for the longest time, was not. tingthing comes to mind (now known as Lisa Lawrence Merritt).

There's no doubt comments shape the site in their own special way. It's not entirely broke, so don't wipe the slate clean to fix it. Simply revamp how we initially stumble upon comments and move on (imho).

Not to bust Miko's chops too badly, but DC's quite right - the current model of linked stories as primary content increases the value of user comments tremendously. In as little vanity as possible (or not), I've caught myself wondering just how many people I randomly run into have seen a PN comment of mine. Coincidentally, I'd rather people serving me food never make the correlation.

Regardless, the fact stands that we represent the site with every word whether we like it or not. I'd sooner see our community flourish than whither away, especially if we make the mistake of abandoning quality for quantity (this concluding the longest post of my life is blatantly hypocritical, but that's how I roll so cry about it silently).

Travis Bush, says:

"I do think we've seen that when the latest comments section gets plugged with strings of sentence fragments that the conversations between users drops and likely their traffic drops at the same time."

If this were true, then it is because the users who are only using the "Latest Comments" feature like a discussion forum and not a new service. One cannot have it both ways if the number of comments one can make are limited. This again is a major function of discussion boards and not strictly new services.

"If the 'comments' section gets cut from PN, we might as well just forget the whole thing and turn to the Observer site instead."

Yes, the lack of any comments on Peg news would be horrid and untenable for most. The "Latest Comments" feature is something entirely different. One might run across a whole page of comments that wasn't interesting enough to read, do you complain then, or do you contribute a comment or an article to try and change that?

AND let us be very honest with one another. Some days there are few comments if any, and to equate one user's activity with an overall lack of traffic is dishonest.

Travis Bush, says:

"One cannot have it both ways if the number of comments one can make are limited."

OMG, he is such an idiot! That should have been "if the number of comments one can make are unlimited."

AGAIN..my kingdom for an edit button..and the swift removal of Doyle-Rice from our planet. I aint messin' around!

Jason Rice, says:

::swift removal of Doyle-Rice from our planet.

Ah, dude. That is the most AWESOME X-mas gift. Thank you so freakin much!!

As for the specifics of real and I mean REAL characters that we as a community wanna preserve... and now I'll name AT:

I was tickled pink at the attempt of "Ask the Troup" but I think as real personalities grow... and let's all be honest, none of us can hold a candle to that character... why not allow them a forum. Frankly, I've referred to AT elsewhere as The Beat-Poet of Delphi.

I think Peg needs an oracle. "Ask the Troup" ought to be an open user posted question forum. Sometimes the questions could be "What the heck did you mean by..." but frankly, half of his answers make me say, "Hell, if he knows that, does he know why the heck this bizarre inexplicable thing?"

Can we start the Peg Personalities Module with a Thought-Speak Shaman?

Russ Vandeveerdonk, says:

I say don't change a thing, it works good. I have been VERY Happy with PN and the comments section AND I do get some breaking news stories from here, other sites, DMNews and Observer don't even write about these stories until later on. (just like Modano's new restaurant opening soon, you guys broke that news) THE COMMENTS section works just fine in my opinion, I read what I want to read, comment on what I want to and skip the other stuff if I want to do so.

Chris Kidd, says:

This is one of,if not,the best user-impacted sites in this market, especially with user commentary. The DMN, D "Magazine" and Observer are still playing catch-up to technology that was invented over a decade ago (see: DMNs clunky blog comment setup). The only thing id really complain about is the occasional junk ad press release that gets posted on here.

As for AT, I dig his style. It may come off as a random ramble, but in a cosmic way, it makes alot of sense. He reminds me of a twitter feed w/o the twitter app ;)

Tracy Yost, says:

fwiw - I would like a better way to follow current topics (and I haven't given much thought to what that mechanism might look like).... but I think the commenting feature is ok as is. I'm sure not everyone reads my posts. I do not always read all posts either but it is my choice and I prefer to keep it that way. Some regular posters are nitwits, and some are insightful or even entertaining (AT falls into this category for me, he adds a lot of character to this site!). Now, I have typed all of this without reading one single post on this page :-) so I'll check back later....

Jason Rice, says:

::...I hope AT takes a moment to tell us...

I Second that.

Michael Anderson, says:

I think the favoriting button solves a lot of the problems that an ignore user button would address since it allows you to focus on comments from people you are interested in. You might miss an insightful one-off comment that got buried in the Latest Comments section, but if you scroll through articles that you're interested in, you'll likely come across those same comments anyway.

Scott Doyle, says:

Speaking of peeps no longer commenting, where in the world is <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/users/jtmbls/">jtmbls</a> and <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/users/12ozfred/">12ozfred</a>?

Lisa Lawrence Merritt, says:

How have I missed all this?

Personally, I like my nit-wit, hit and run style!

And as to AT, he falls into the Jabberwock category.

Beware the vorpal blade!!!

Scott Doyle, says:

DC, methinks that would open up "Nazi mod" accusations if it were at a given staffer's discretion what's topical and what's not.

Not to mention, witty comebacks may never be viewed by the populous! Egad, man!!

FWIW, if an ignore function is added and I'm the most ignored...I'd be honored.

Michael Anderson, says:

What about allowing users to customize the size of the Latest Comments box to view more/less comments and, correspondingly, to customize the size of the other interfaces on the site in response? For all I know, this would be a coding nightmare, but it's a thought.

Collin Gouldin, says:

DC - i don't think either of the developers are the vodkaredbull type .... maybe some espresso from <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/places/opening-bell-coffee/">opening bell</a> though

Travis Bush, says:

Hey David, how often does Collin let you use the arms and the keyboard?

Jason Rice, says:

::(or possibly even switch) masks in the middle of a conversation.

Yeah - that's the actual fun part of it, but I completelygrok the need for consistency. If you go to the bother of Verifying, why not "be" identified.

::if ... I'm the most ignored...I'd be honored.

ScoDo, know that in my heart, you are already filtered.

Travis Bush, says:

One question I was going to ask is about the existing platform you use. Does it have a tool bar interface that you can just turn on, or is it a Herculean task to integrate one that had simple things like Bold, Italicize, Underline, Font/Color/Size, Hyperlink? This is an ease of use issue, but one that might lead to more comments with added content.

On a side note, I really think the Submit a Story interface needs some work. The License Agreement box is bigger than the text box for typing out a story.

Pavel Lishin, says:

I usually just send my story ideas to TG, mostly because it's easier to find her profile than it is to find the story submission page at all.

Scott Doyle, says:

Speaking as someone who's commented more than everyone but Miko (soon, sir...very soon) - I probably wouldn't use much of a submit interface aside from hyperlinking. Mostly b/c I've gotten so used to typing out the code, partly b/c that's how I want to roll.

However, image hosting is an entirely different story. There's tons of stuff that I can't use hosting sites for from work but would absolutely love to share with the masses...and not have it broken when the random site I pull from takes it down. =(

J-Rusty, guarantee the ignore wouldn't last a day - sheer curiosity is what keeps 'em coming back!

Matt Anderson, says:

The only ones that really bother me are (as Mike has noted) the hit-and-run one-time reviewers. Even something like a friendly "Congratulations first time commenter!" would signal that the review or comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

The verified-user indicator is very valuable -- I only know a couple of other people around here personally, but I give more credence to a verified stranger than an anonymous stranger.

If I find a comment incoherent, I tend to picture it being said by Abraham "Grandpa" Simpson -- "I am not a crackpot!". Or it brings to mind an old song lyric:

"'Every single day it gets Just a little bit harder to handle, and yet....' Then he lost the thread, and his mind got cluttered, And the words just rolled off down the gutter."

So it's either amusing or pitiable, or both, but nothing to get angry at.

Pavel Lishin, says:

I don't think the one-time reviewers are suspicious, unless they paste a five-paragraph review.

Travis Bush, says:

Hi there jtmbls. Sorry to hear of your troubles..It wasn't teh same without you.

Jason Rice, says:

::Jason, please stop calling me Bob.

I thought you were getting tired of "pookums"

And drag AT back in here kicking or screaming. It has been a 100% philosophy free day and that's unacceptable.

Jason Rice, says:

::Can I request more reviews from DC somewhere?

You mean somewhere besides Peg?

Sorry DC, couldn't resist. (luv ya , meen it!)

Tracy Yost, says:

yeh, what cho said.

Travis Bush, says:

There wouldn't be any comments like that if this topic hadn't been brought up at another user's expense and I assume you know that DC. If you don't, the only term that comes to mind is obtuse.

Travis Bush, says:

I was correct..obtuse describes your attitude perfectly.

Jason Rice, says:

::Do you admire yourself in the mirror as you type?

cho!! Brilliant. That's the only thing missing from my PC setup!!!

Thanks! (Man I love these guys - they're almost as smart as me!)

Scott Doyle, says:

o-m-geeeeee jtm! Very sorry to hear about your troubles. Hopefully you'll find a way to make the best of the season despite your loss(es). =)

Nothing like defending a personal attack by wishing physical attacks upon peeps! As much as I'm hopeful cho was joking around, definitely not something to joke about.

To try and rerail comments on the blog post advocating them, maybe we can get a beta of whatever ideas y'all have and give feedback?

Travis Bush, says:

Scott...let's not pretend that this topic is just about "improving the website". It is also about several douches who have no problem alienating a user like A.T., simply because they have control issues. It would be nice if this had simply been a discussion about how to improve PN, but it isn't. Can you blame people for getting upset about behavior that does not reflect the spirit of Pegasus News? if it doesn't matter to them, then I say they are fair game and should expect little quarter from those that might just care about such things.

Jason Rice, says:

Guys - c'mon. If this doesn't resemble 5 out of 7 Thanksgiving family get-togethers on planet earth, I'll eat my shoe.

We are here from a common interest in news that we can roll around in a little... and frankly, darned few of us really get our hands dirty with it. Diletantes such as myself get under the skin of serious readers like BillUsa99. DC's "The Warner Sister Dot" smugness sometimes rubs me the wrong way. Doyle's irreverence regularly starts petitions for his sterilization. Pavel is safe only because we fear hairstyles we've seen only State Fair ring toss prizes.

This is how a project or community grows. I see it all the time in theaters and writing groups and software projects and event planning - and -- and --- and....

We've had our share of casualties (AngryDog pops to mind as an unfortunate loss - and yes, I carried one end of the rail he rode out on) and I hope to hell AT isn't another.

But these are SOCIAL issues not technical ones. And spitting at each other across the Turkey just ruins the meal for everyone. -- And we could alienate a few more in this thread if it's not about TECH!

Tech things I liked exposing here were essentially viable linear upgrades to user interaction and a healthy focus on keeping the lights on. Travis, I found a couple of Markdown editors that you could author postings in, but then cut and paste into the comments... I find Markdown annoying but easier than even wiki syntax. I would like more capacity for "guest columnists on the fly" (feature cloud only here - no concrete use cases, sorry). It might also be nice to "weight" the comments and headlines.... more granularity than zipcode (again - cloud)

Jason Rice, says:

Oh, and I forgot to say that Travis is just a weirdo hippy freak unfit to breathe the same air as most of us.

Jason Rice, says:

.., and that the only non-tech topics that can help at this point are mediation and dispute resolution policies or suggestions to avoid this open catfight in the future.

But I'm a techie not a sociologist - so it's gotta be tech. "Every problem looks like a nail" right?

Jason Rice, says:

... and with one more comment I momentarily monopolize the "Latest Comments"

Tracy Yost, says:

"these are SOCIAL issues not technical ones."

key point imho.

Jason Rice, says:

And you're another techie!?! Whoa... this is scary.

Travis Bush, says:

"and that the only non-tech topics that can help at this point are mediation and dispute resolution policies or suggestions to avoid this open catfight in the future."

How a policy that says "live and let live"? It isn't that hard to understand unless of course you are a smug ahole. BTW, if you ever mention dispute resolution again, I will personally disembowel your Little Orphan Annie collection.

Scott Doyle, says:

Reverence is for chumps.

This isn't the first time AT has been criticized for his style. To date he's simply brushed that dirt off his shoulder and moved on. Maybe he's had a busy couple of days and simply hasn't been able to tether himself to the webbernets like the rest of us, ya never know.

Now, pls focus on techie stuff affecting everyone. I also feel this is an opportune moment to inquire about status of our <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/blogs/pegasusnewsblog/2008/apr/20/philosophers/#c24675">user t-shirts</a>. Miko?

Travis Bush, says:

And would your mother be proud of you disparaging some old guy on the Internet? I bet not, so don't event try starting that pity party for yourself. Such bullsh*it..

Jason Rice, says:

User t-shirts! Those are genius! Missed em.... How??? April? Yep, in the middle of a show. (blackout)

x*x, Travis, now girls, you're both pretty. Clay, however, might could use a little blush.

Now, back to logoed paraphernalia... THAT would be worth having. (Definitely on the "Clever" side)

Travis Bush, says:

I want a shirt with a Cho-Rice Topper.

Jason Rice, says:

DC, I think the hat is perfect. Thanks!

Travis Bush, says:

That looks like something from the Econo-Lodge Hair Club for Men.

Travis Bush, says:

Sorry, I meant Howard Johnson's.

Russ Vandeveerdonk, says:

I understand that AT is having a bout with the flu right now. I am not sure if I wanna get involved in this posting dialogue about how things might improve at PN and the postings areas, I again say, "it is fine, don't mess with anything guys and gals". (and I still say the Bush family will be living in Highland Park, not Preston Hollow, but I may get new info by Sunday)

Scott Doyle, says:

While we're offering site feedback, Things You Can't Miss...should be where I can't miss it. =p

Rawlins Gilliland, says:

I am not totally sure what happened here, despite reading the original thread and this one my Orren en total. But off the cuff; it seemed to me over the last few months that no few thread comments became off-to-the-races (and often off-topic) inside baseball erstwhile chatter by a cast of regulars. Nothing wrong there...but it seemed to me that it came to somewhat discourage discussion in favor of banter. Whatever.

Sometimes, just as an experiment, I posted a completely illogical fantasy farce to sorta see who responded and in what way...and who 'got' that I was having fun writing something to 'clarify' the 'back story' with tongue planted firmly in cheek. More often than not the posts continued to be back and forth uninterrupted banter that seemed only vaguely relevant to the original post. I just write this to contribute...albeit quite late in the game...to the topic at hand.

I love the intimacy and yes immediacy of the Pegasus feedback forum interaction. But yes, it can sometimes feel like you're trying to join a party in progress. And yes, once one get through that party’s door, there have been a couple of times when the humorless PC police decided to take issue with our collective wit, and per usual these days, in effect tell me what I (and others) 'meant' by the quips.

The thread months ago per Olympic champ and local hero Nastia Lukin exhibit A. It was like when we joked about her youth and beauty we were perverts. Considering that I....like many here...am using my real name...and thus EVERY comment I (and others using their actual names) posted is then posted on the web when one Googles, having someone suggest that another Pesgasusian is a cyber lust-filled underage kid connoisseur, the question becomes: 1) Is it worth it and 2) what's in it for us?

That said, I think the balance between stuffy and infantile is a tough row to hoe. Pegasus does a fine job keeping the balance. More to the point, Pegasus cares. As do many chronic readers and prolific posters.

Love, Rawlins

Travis Bush, says:

"there have been a couple of times when the humorless PC police decided to take issue with our collective wit,"

Yes, and one assumes that those same people are quite pleased with themselves now.

"Those comments may not be everyone's cup of tea in terms of format, but we've never used that as a rubric before and I don't see us starting now."

If only this were true, but wait! Peg staffers don't have to bother, especially when the control freaks are happy to chase people off for them. It seems to me that some users are far more important than others for whatever reason, but at the end of the day, it still is terribly unfriendly and douche-like.

Pavel Lishin, says:

Wait, wait, I can still post a vaguely-relevant image!

<img src="http://uploads.postfarm.net/public/postfarm/uploads-2.0/w/walloftext.jpg">

Jason Rice, says:

JD, does Mike EVER let you go home?

A running synopsis? Could be quite cool.

(Ok, I feel a pointy headed boss moment) What if contrasting synopses were selectable. I think we can assume we'd have some - amazing, but true. Nevermind - too many worms.

So how could a Keeper arise/be chosen? You guys have bills to pay and real news to mill.

Jason Rice, says:

DC, if this comment format was good enough for my granpappy, it's dad-gum sure good enough fer you whippersnappers.

Honestly, a synopsis system sounds really intriguing.... partly because I'd love to see AT and a few others (now and near future) given a "color commentary" sidebar. Face it, that would be a riot. But more work for our data-pusher foot soldiers isn't an answer.

Scott Doyle, says:

Synopsis system sounds terrible, imo - talk about inviting censorship and personal bias. Where the hell is Yost when you need him?

I'm all for change if it's necessary and/or productive. However, as stated I'd prefer at least a reasonable amount of thought be put into the decision instead of using us like the retarded lab rats that even other lab rats laugh at.

And I'll admit that when I see a huge poopfest of commentary I'm less likely to read through it all. Sorry, my time is worth more than yours (to me anyways) - unless it's something that directly affects me, Doyle doesn't care enough to wade through the feces.