UPDATED: Oak Point’s “English-only” resolution prompts (more) concerns, questions and disappointment

terryorze, says:

It is clear that some people translate the phrase "I am a Bigot" into engish as "it is too expensive to to translate documents into english." Come on we are all Americans and we are all better together than apart.

I have lived among our American brothers to the south, and I know that they love us down there even when they do not want to move here. Believe it or not most of them are not trying to sceam a way to get up to the US an make a living. They would rather be poor and living with thier friends and families just like you. They love thier children more than anything else. Just like you.

I blame this kind of law on these peoples' parents and kindergarten teachers for not teaching the golden rule. Yes I said it. Your Mamma must of made you this way.

legend500, says:

An example of people putting petty hatreds in front of our common humanity and the golden rule. Well Said, terryorze!

wrenchspinner, says:

I am continually amazed at the empowerment given to immigrants within our borders unwilling to integrate into the society they now call home here in the US.

I'm also equally moved and saddened by the level of appeasement within our local, state and even federal governmental agencies to even the smallest complaints stemming from this segment of society in regard to such simple requests as this issue of making an English only decision for city documentation.

My query is : Why in a country whose native population by and large are English speakers is translation of any public signage, public or governmental documentation or truly anything outside of documentation regarding naturalization paperwork of citizens from foreign countries into any foreign language at all ?

I have heard this argument addressed with comments of this type of action being a compassionate move to help those not familiar with English to better move through our society and legal processes, yet I wonder if this is truly such a move, then why aren't these same considerations given to the Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Lebanese, French, German, Italian languages to name but a few?

Clearly and simply put it's because the above mentioned populations of immigrants here within our borders are not DEMANDING we appease them by doing so !

This small community is trying to stand and say to one and all that it's time we stop this appeasement by translation of documentation into Spanish and that anyone wanting to understand what goes on in their city do so in English and all I hear from the comments above are how pointless, fool hearty or wrong this all seems.

As a native born Texan I wonder how could it possibly be wrong to expect those emigrating and living here to assimilate within our society and learn the native tongue? Secondly, why should any city, state or federal documents need translation into any other language?

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee folks. This issue in not about racism or a lacking by the American public of acceptance of legal immigrant populations as the Spanish speaking backers of dissent on this resolution will decry.

America has always been a country of immigrants, yet until the large populations of Spanish speakers began to stream across our borders every immigrant understood and expected to learn English and accept the customs and laws of our country as a part of their immigration and integration into American society.

This issue is simply about being American and proud of our country as well as the language we speak here, which is NOT Spanish and asking the Spanish speaking immigrants to do no more than has been asked of any other group of immigrants throughout American history, which is to learn our language !

Anyone incapable of seeing dissent on this issue as anything other than a move to validate further dissolution of our American culture, society and language is seriously deluded. I for one applaud this city for having the foresight and resolve to both understand the underlying implications of NOT acting against such obvious appeasement of a group so bent on undermining the expectation of immigrants to assimilate into OUR culture and NOT the other way around and move forward with such an issue !

kirk, says:

We've been deluding ourselves about language assimilation for a long time, and the undeniably fact is that the issue of "learnin' to talk American" rears its head when the immigrants in question are the "type of people we don't like."

Here's an excerpt from a briefing paper y'all might enjoy http://www.lectlaw.com/files/con09.htm

"Our nation was tolerant of linguistic diversity up until the late 1800s, when an influx of Eastern and Southern Europeans, as well as Asians, aroused nativist sentiments and prompted the enactment of restrictive language laws. A 1911 Federal Immigration Commission report falsely argued that the "old" Scandinavian and German immigrants had assimilated quickly, while the "new" Italian and Eastern European immigrants were inferior to their predecessors, less willing to learn English, and more prone to political subversion. In order to "Americanize" the immigrants and exclude people thought to be of the lower classes and undesirable, English literacy requirements were established for public employment naturalization, immigration and suffrage. The New York State Constitution was amended to disfranchise over one million Yiddish-speaking citizens. The California Constitution was similarly amended to disfranchise Chinese who were seen as a threat to the "purity of the ballot box."

"Ironically, during the same period, the government sought to "Americanize" Native American Indian children by taking them from their families and forcing them to attend English language boarding schools, where they were punished for speaking their indigenous languages. The intense anti-German sentiment that accompanied the outbreak of World War I prompted several states, where bilingual schools had been commonplace to enact extreme language laws. For example, Nebraska passed a law in 1919 prohibiting the use of any other language than English through the eighth grade. The Supreme Court subsequently declared the law an unconstitutional violation of due process."

wrenchspinner, says:

Ok, so let's look at this whole situation in a simple straight forward manner.

Why in a country where the commonly accepted language is English should any signage or government documentation be needed to to translated into ANY other language? No one has yet even cared in the above comments to address that, so how about it folks, why is there a need for it at all?

Why do all translated documents ONLY get translated into Spanish?

Why ? Because the largest number of immigrants in the state of Texas are Spanish speakers, a goodly percentage of whom are also part of the illegal population of immigrants within our borders.

This group is also the most vocal of any group of immigrants throughout our history, legal or otherwise to not only expect, but well and truly DEMAND rights, services and preferential treatment within our society!

It's quite obvious the comments above were related by people either of hispanic descent or those sympathetic to the hispanic based immigrant causes, yet no one has yet spoken up for the "other" side of this issue which is the city government themselves, outside of myself, and I don't even live anywhere near Oak Point !

If you feel the cost of document translation for Oak Points city documentation is so minimalistic, how about some of you Spanish speakers sympathetic to a need for such translations volunteer to either do it for them or pay someone else to do so for Oak Point?

Try putting your money and convictions where your sympathies lie instead of decrying a city government trying to shave a bit of unnecessary translation costs and the associated time required to get this stuff done (remember folks, even time is money) from their budget when there is actually no reasonable need for these translations in the 1st place in an English speaking country.

wrenchspinner Lone Oak,Tx.

wrenchspinner, says:

Rawlins, please forgive MY ignorance in not capitalizing "Hispanic". No, Spanish is definitely not my second tongue.

Now then, with that addressed, care to relate something of any true meaning about what was written instead of just pot shots?

As to my lengthy prose, what can I say ? I'm just another example of a long winded Texan ! Not enough Scotch in my heritage to have ever been very good at literary thrift.

I have Texas heritage stretching to the middle 1800s myself, am a native Dallasite who grew up in Oak Cliff and when I chose a foreign language to learn, I chose French. <-Never found a woman yet who didn't enjoy hearing it :>)

One last clarification regarding your last post : my nom de plume is wRenchspinner. Leaving out the "R" definitely changes the meaning a bit, wouldn't you think ?

wrenchspinner Lone Oak, Tx.

DC, says:

Wouldn't S.2611 make most of this 'official' language discussion moot?

Also, round one, in the "Who is More Core" Rawlins Vs Wrenchy 2007....whose family was in Texas first, who can eat the most brisket, whose hat is the tallest??!! Tune in to find out more!

wrenchspinner, says:

Well DC from the sounds of it the Rawlins family has the history angle on my own relative to longevity here. I'm a bigger fan of a thick steak than brisket. Will however challenge any willing victim to a contest of will in a hotter than hellfire itself eating competition and .... don't even own a set of cowboy boots or a belt buckle you could use for a boat anchor in a pinch, and if you ever find a cowboy hat restin on my brow you can bet someone is playin an awful joke on my unwilling prone corpse !

Though it seems almost Un-Texan like of me by many folks, nor do I ever listen to country music willingly :>)

I'm a city boy through and through, just choose not to live and work there anymore after having spent far too many hours stuck behind the wheel on some freeway while givin away far too many dollars in gas and way too many hours weekly just gettin to and from the job.

Nowadays when I come home there's no cars constantly rollin by the casa, no seemingly never ending sound of sirens and at night the stars fill the skies in a way far unlike in the big city.

I am always reminded in each trip into the city EXACTLY why I choose to live elsewhere these days.

wrenchspinner Lone Oak, Tx.

Phoenix, says:

To Chad:

I read your reply to my message. I am not trying to be critical of you, but I would like to clarify something. I stand corrected when I said there were about 75 people at the Oak Point City Council Meeting, but according to Mr. Brown, there were approximately 60 people present. 17 people who were against the resolution spoke, while 6 people who were against the resolution did not speak. 4 people who were for the resolution spoke, while 4 people who were for the resolution did not speak. Thus the 23 people who were against the resolution would be 38 percent of the 60 people present, not 75 percent as you stated. Also some of the people attending the meeting were observers, thus changing the 38% to an even smaller percentage. You were including only the speakers in your calculations, but you should include everyone at the meeting to be fair. Another statement was made that there was an overwhelming majority voting against the resolution. I hardly consider 38 percent of the total people present an overwhelming majority.

I guess I am tired of the emotionalism and deceptiveness, bordering on exaggeration and maybe even fabrication to win a point and for what purpose? This is not casting any aspersions on you at all, but for others where I see a fine thread of manipulation. Remember that the petition of less than 150 people is selectively acquiring names for one’s individual objective. Who knows how many people were by-passed that rejected this petition. Also, I see an anonymous poll is being taken on the Emerald sound web site, and so far the statistics are (For the resolution – 66%, Against the resolution - 26%, Indifferent- 6%, and Undecided - 0%). .

Think of it this way: The second meeting was held to have another vote. Naturally, the people against the resolution would show up. The people for the resolution were satisfied with the vote, so did not show up. This is bogus – in other words, keep trying till you win.

As far as being anonymous, I chose to do that so I can be free to voice my opinion without fear of retribution. Your job for all purposes is to report. I’ve always been told that reporting should be free of all inferences and slanting of information. I see a lot of SPIN happening, because there is a definite slant to what you report.

You stated that the City Manager said there is no cost for translation of documents into Spanish. Who is translating for free, and who is buying paper, ink, and electricity, etc? Documents written in Spanish are nearly 3 times the size of documents written in English. Even though the cost might be minimal, it is time-consuming. If the translators work at City Hall, do they not receive a salary? Time spent is money. Please explain to me how this could be done at no cost.

Phoenix, says:

Mike: Per your statement, quote, "We believe in utter transparency in our reporting--and that our reporters should wear their biases on their sleeve".

Thank you, you have answered my question; however, please don't call yourselves reporters. You are commentators.

End of debate

txcutie, says:

WRENCHSPINNER: You should run for office as I have not heard anybody in congress, senate, etc., state it so correctly as you did on your first posting. We live in America...speak English. The American people are starting to get tired of our tax dollars going towards accommodating people who do not want to learn the english language. I'm not just talking about individuals who have just arrived illegally but also people who have lived in this country for 2 or more years. Why are these individuals not wanting to take the time to learn English, after all they have already been in this country and reaping the benefits for a couple of years. I was listening to a talk radio program and a father called in to complain that his daughter who goes to school brought a note home to the parents that the Pledge of Allegiance is now going to be in Spanish. The majority of the school his daughter attended were Americans and spoke english. Where does this end....What these council members are trying to do is save tax dollars to the citizens of Oak Point. Shame on those small vocal minorities that continue to create chaos and try to get rid of this resolution when it has been voted on twice.....the voice of the majority has spoken and is being spoken across the US. Yes, America had better wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late and you wake up one morning with the Mexican flag instead of old glory!!!!

OK Kirk, Rawlins and the rest of you....jump on the wagon as I'm sure you will be able to provide me with your inputs and this time try to be nice.

luniz, says:

I think there's a lot bigger wastes of $$$ than translating documents to Spanish. Also I guess I don't understand why you think everybody should be forced to learn English. The Constitution may have been written in English, but it never said that any citizens should have to speak it. Should life, liberty, and happiness be restricted to only English speakers?

Is the only reason you want to establish English as the official language to save money?

txcutie, says:

CHAD: I love your postings but I do have to correct you on a couple of things you stated. #1 the people that you so described as coming here and not making much monies because they are having to sweep floors, etc., don't cut the mustard with me because some of the neighbors and I paid $50/hr per worker for them to pull weeds on our flower beds and these workers complained that they didn't have a chair to sit on to make it easy for them to do the work. Costs and not having monies to learn the english language....come on....A few years back ago, the City of Denton and Housing Authority tried to provide free classes to these people to learn not only the English language but also computers and sewing but guess what.....maybe 2 or 3 people showed up. I have a friend that had been looking for a housekeeper to clean her house once a week and guess how much this illegal person tried to charge her per hour....$35. She got a cleaning company to do it for less. One of my neighbors needed to have cement patio made and he ended up hiring an American Landscape company because they were less expensive then the illegal. There are a lot of people who have graduated from college that don't make the monies some of these illegals make. I know that we are treading on another subject other than the English Resolution as we are now speaking about immigration but let me ask you this question.....why is it that these illegals who come into our country, demand rights, march on demonstrations, etc., expecting the American people to make changes to accommodate them, but they don't march and become vocal and demand the government of their own country to make changes. Why don't they try to stabilize their government and country with their voices and strive to make changes in Mexico? Have you been reading about what is happening to those hard working ranchers by the border who are having illegals encroach on their land, kill their cattle, and even steal from their homes. Now farmers in Calif Central valley are worried as to who will pick their lettuce so they can have cheap labor...well guess what....that cheap labor by the time you finish paying for all the free benefits they receive including health care, etc., that head of lettuce ends up costing that consumer a lot more than you think. There are many other cultures that come to the United States and guess what....they work just as hard as these people that you are talking about Chad but the difference is that they take the time to educate themselves and learn not only the English language but skills so they can prosper and make a good life for themselves here in America!!!! You don't hear them marching and demanding for social security, document changes, etc. I don't want to have anybody think that all Hispanics are like the one's I described as there are many Hispanic people who are my friends and very hard working people and guess what.....they don't like what a lot of these illegals are doing either!!

OK guys...jump on this wagon

kirk, says:

No bandwagon to jump on, Txcutie, as far as I am concerned. As I said before, "Bless you." I sincerely hope that the beliefs you espouse bring you everything you deserve.

txcutie, says:

Kirk: likewise with u.

DC, says:

Maybe those Oak Pointers need to get out to Party Cove (?capitalization) and relax a little.

Since we can all digress about leafy vegetables, I might caution some of the posters here that losing a large, uninsured labor work force might not be the blessing that you're looking for. Seriously.

txcutie, says:

Erin as I stated earlier these Mexican illegals that you are talking about have the opportunity to take english classes for free and few chose to take it. So there is no excuse for that.

DC, says:

Actually, no, plenty of countries operate with many languages and dialects. Is there some reason to think people here aren't smart enough to do the same?

Oh yeah, smoking ban...

SonyaBlade, says:

I hate the racist agenda whites and blacks put on immigrants. AMERICA NEEDS MORE LOW INCOME WORKERS! A higher importation rate of day laborers will assure America remains a superpower for decades to come. The Japanese are a Playstation away from owning America.

DC, says:

Rick -

Duly noted.

txcutie, says:

sonyablade: nobody put a whites and blacks agenda here.....We don't need immigrants for low income workers.....before one starts with immigrants from Mexico who expect and demand benefits when they are here illegal and provide them with free aid, the US should take a good look at the poor people who are already living here legally. We have individuals who are Americans or immigrants who live in the US legally who live in poverty, we have the elderly who have worked all their lives and can't even afford their medicine, high property taxes, high utilities, etc., and need to either move out of their homes into an apartment in order to survive on Social Security and many can't even afford to pay for food or medicine, we have children who are also Americans and legal immigrants that need to have better schools and a better education and what about free college tuition for these children? What about these people who are Americans or are immigrants from other countries that have come here legally through the immigration process. But here illegals are reaping the benefits....by government giving them special benefits we are rewarding them for an illegal act. Benefits should be a privilige given to those who come to the US legally. All that are illegal should be barred from any social program.

txcutie, says:

I did. On Tuesday. In fact the police had to tell him to leave the area. Have you worked at the Housing Authority and seen the illegals asking for free apartments and benefits including free child care? I have.

wrenchspinner, says:

Gotta love it when a member of those holding a dissenting opinion against the English only debate chooses to conveniently whip out the race card in defense of their point of view instead of addressing the myriad of real issues relevant to this discussion and its varying implications within our society. If racism is the best argument one can offer in this discussion instead it simply points up the shallow nature of the logic presented against this issue and is obviously meant to bolster unification of the bleeding heart position in this issue. Sorry but bleeding hearts aren't going to solve this issue !

Been hanging out with Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton to gain "talking points" tips in discussions such as this one have you? These two are masters of that logic and if they were chiming in on this issue (which of course won't happen since their discriminatory agenda only addresses issues relevant to blacks:>( you can rest assured they would use the racist dogmatic position in this issue as they always do when they can't get their point across is a logical way.

I appreciated the clarifications above about the percentages of the members present at the Oak Point meeting relevant to their positions since the slant in this article and truly each and every post by staff members within this thread have shown the obvious slant and position of those within Pegasus.

Out of curiosity I have to query if La Raza isn't lurking somewhere within the shadows at Pegasus? I only ask this since again the slant is pretty obvious and would fit quite well within their agenda.

Once more I will ask that anyone wanting city documentation at Oak Point to be translated into Spanish offer their services to make this possible or else provide the funds to the city management to get it done.

It's really easy to sit on the sidelines and speak divisively about policies one does not agree with yet quite another to actually take a positive position and become a part of such a simple solution instead.

Maybe an attempt at a viable solution somewhere outside of simply demanding appeasement to the Hispanic side of this situation is a bit more reasonable, just a wild shot at a logical solution here ;>)

As to comments above regarding areas of the world where multiple languages are used and why not here ?

Simple logic in places like Europe where neighboring countries speak differing languages make a much more reasonable argument for this practice.

When a country as close as Houston is from Dallas speaks a different tongue the logic of such practices bears a bit more relevency. However, when a country as large as America is undertakes such a measure as in use of Chinese (and its varying dialects), Japanese, Korean, Spanish and the several other languages common in places like California, then were to also look at the various translations necessary in places like New York City where the above mentioned tongues list can have Polish, German, Italian, Vietnamese, French, Russian and many more thrown in it would lead to something very much akin to a "Tower of Babel" discussion on the topic.

The real point is however that NONE of the above mentioned contingencies within the American society are asking for appeasement of the use of English as our commonly used language EXCEPT the Mexican and Central/South American immigrants within our borders.

My contention is that this is discriminatory in itself though I sure don't expect the Hispanic community to even attempt, much less actually apply such simple logic to this argument.

One last thought : Discrimination is not only the exclusion of rights of a specific group but also the demands for specialized rights of any group as both are actually discrimination just as surely!

This is one bitter consequence for those demanding special treatment for the Hispanic contention within our borders to chew wisely upon.

wrenchspinner Lone Oak, Tx.

txcutie, says:

“The one absolute certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, or preventing All possibility of it’s continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it To become a tangle of squabbling nationalities. We have but one flag. We must also learn one language and that language is English.”

            Theodore Roosevelt

txcutie, says:

Cost vs. Benefits You've all heard the claim that illegal immigrants keep prices low. On some items (like certain crops) that's true. But what about the other costs associated with illegal immigrants? Each one of their children cost the taxpayer's thousands of dollars when born, because hospitals cannot refuse treatment of anyone, and have to inflate the cost of everyone else's bill to help pay for the bills. Then each of those children cost taxpayers over $6,000 per year when they go to public school. Those bills are added to your property taxes. Roughly 20% of the illegals apprehended by INS along the border have criminal records. About 29% (almost a third) of the US prison population are non-citizens. Each of those criminals cost taxpayers between $25,000 and $35,000 to house in prison per year... An estimated $20,000,000,000 (that's billion, not million) American dollars are siphoned off of the American economy and sent to Mexico by illegals every year. It's Mexico's second largest source of income (after oil). No wonder they won't do anything to stop the flow of illegals... There is no way to estimate the cost and damage caused by the steady stream of illegal drugs that cross the border along with the illegal immigrants. The high cost of the crimes they inspire, the hospital costs of victims, and the law enforcement costs are clearly in the billions per year. The welfare benefits and other low income government handouts are estimated to run about $10 billion a year. Then there's the lost tax revenue from illegals that do not pay any federal income taxes, no state income taxes, and often do not pay other payroll taxes as well. No figures are currently available on this cost, but it's certainly high. Also missing is any estimates in lost wages from American workers who have been replaced with illegal immigrants, especially in the construction industry. Instead of paying taxes, these citizens end up costing other taxpayers plenty. And just when you thought it couldn't get more ridiculous, the Senate (led by John MaCain) voted to give illegals full Social Security benefits! That's billions and billions of dollars more of a drain on a system that is already going bankrupt, and all because illegals stole Social Security numbers as part of their identity scam, but politicians are too scared to stand up to a large potential voting block. Incredible! Investing a one-time cost of $4 billion on a high tech, three layered fence along our border may seem expensive at first, but when looked at from a yearly cost/ benefit standpoint, it would pay for itself in the first six months of completion. (Keep in mind, however, that serious enforcement against employers of illegal immigrants is equally important.)

txcutie, says:

Think of what General Eisenhower did to correct the illegal immigration problem. Read below article of John Dillin. It may enlighten one as to how a simple solution can correct a big problem.

John Dillin is former managing editor of the Monitor Border Patrol vets offer tips on curbing illegal immigration.

One day in 1954, Border Patrol agent Walt Edwards picked up a newspaper in Big Spring, Texas, and saw some startling news. The government was launching an all-out drive to oust illegal aliens from the United States.

The orders came straight from the top, where the new president, Dwight Eisenhower, had put a former West Point classmate, Gen. Joseph Swing, in charge of immigration enforcement.

General Swing's fast-moving campaign soon secured America's borders - an accomplishment no other president has since equaled. Illegal migration had dropped 95 percent by the late 1950s.

Several retired Border Patrol agents who took part in the 1950s effort, including Mr. Edwards, say much of what Swing did could be repeated today.

"Some say we cannot send 12 million illegals now in the United States back where they came from. Of course we can!" Edwards says.

Donald Coppock, who headed the Patrol from 1960 to 1973, says that if Swing and Ike were still running immigration enforcement, "they'd be on top of this in a minute."

William Chambers, another '50s veteran, agrees. "They could do a pretty good job" sealing the border.

Edwards says: "When we start enforcing the law, these various businesses are, on their own, going to replace their [illegal] workforce with a legal workforce."

While Congress debates building a fence on the border, these veterans say other actions should have higher priority.

1. End the current practice of taking captured Mexican aliens to the border and releasing them. Instead, deport them deep into Mexico, where return to the US would be more costly.

2. Crack down hard on employers who hire illegals. Without jobs, the aliens won't come.

3. End "catch and release" for non-Mexican aliens. It is common for illegal migrants not from Mexico to be set free after their arrest if they promise to appear later before a judge. Few show up.

The Patrol veterans say enforcement could also be aided by a legalized guest- worker program that permits Mexicans to register in their country for temporary jobs in the US. Eisenhower's team ran such a program. It permitted up to 400,000 Mexicans a year to enter the US for various agriculture jobs that lasted for 12 to 52 weeks.

txcutie, says:

is this school in Mexico??

txcutie, says:

Oh since it wasn't stated in ENGLISH I thought that maybe the school was in Mexico as I thought we lived in the USA.