Interview: Striped Socks Productions

Let's get one thing straight: Erich Redman was in United 93.

by John P. Meyer

Justin Hilliard and Ryan Hartsell, 2004 graduates of UTA and already (on the basis of their first completed feature film, Wednesday) established filmmakers, met with me for a late lunch at Roma's, south of Walnut Hill on Greenville. Also joining us were co-producer/actress Arianne Martin (who is, incidentally, Justin's fiancee) and co-producer/actor Frank Mosley.

Justin, Ryan and crew are committed artists. This fact is established beyond dispute as our discussion commences. They proclaim that Wednesday was produced without regard for commercial potential, and - having viewed the two hour long, intensely personal, sometimes uncomfortably dark and, finally, dangerously deconstructed film - I can report that the Striped Socks Productions folks have indeed created a work of epic non-commercial potential.

But I say this in the most complimentary way possible, because what Wednesday ends up being is a filmed document of the thoughts, emotions, philosophies and real/imagined life experiences of serious young filmmakers who succeed in demonstrating a raw talent for the art and craft of cinema. It's just so dang depressing for the first 100 minutes or so. If you order the DVD - and I recommend that you do, because I think you'll want to refer back to it after these folks complete their next series of films - I suggest putting away all sharp objects before popping it into the player. Forewarned is unarmed.

NOTES regarding the interview process and the transcript to follow:

Wednesday plays out in four segments, referred to below as 1) Luke and Lucy, 2) Purgatory, 3) Lyrics for a Lowly Life, and 4) Narcissus Flower.

For purposes of coherence, I changed the order of some of the questions/responses from their original sequence; I also omitted some of the conversation in situations where we diverged from topic. When you see how long this thing is, I doubt anyone will mind.

My editorial remarks are included in parentheses. (Like this.)

John P. Meyer: Are you all North Texans?

Justin Hilliard: Yes, we are all locally bred.

Ryan Hartsell: Well, I was imported at an early age, from Dearborn, Michigan. I was two years old, so...

JM: Tell me about the locations used in Wednesday. Did I recognize White Rock Lake spillway?

JH: Yes, that was White Rock Lake spillway, and we got pretty lucky with that one, because the scene was originally written to take place in a cafe, and Luke was supposed to just wander off into the sunrise, whatever. And Ryan's like, "you need to check out this White Rock Lake spillway." That's one of the locations. A lot of 'em are Dallas/Fort Worth area locations, Lewisville, Arlington, North Richland Hills, kind of scattered all around the metroplex.

RH: As far as a location to really isolate those two (Luke and Lucy), in that moment in time, that just came to mind. To see off into the distance and the perspective of that shot...

JH: With the shift of light, to The Divine Comedy, where it's purgatory/paradise, it really put them at the edge of the world, where they were about to make the step before they slipped into Hell, basically.

Frank Mosley: It's one of the things I really like about all the characters in Wednesday, because it's a great use of locations. Every character has their own space, and they completely fill that space. Whether it's the Narcissus or whether it's the Lyric segment, everybody has their own world. I think those locations were wonderfully chosen.

JM: Who did the scouting for the locations?

JH: On Wednesday, we wore so many different hats for that. Ryan and I always do a lot of the scouting. Frank helped out a lot. Arianne helped out a ton on location scouting. A friend of mine, Scott, who was a porter at the hotel I worked at in London, helped a lot with the scouting there. He and I pretty much did all the London scouting.

JM: What about the tunnel for the Purgatory scenes? Where'd you find that?

JH: The Hellfire Caves. Up in High Wickham, England. There's another set of caves, the Chislehurst Caves, and I'd been in contact with them, I'd been back and forth with them, and Ryan's boss gave him the suggestion to check out these Hellfire Caves...

RH: Because he actually grew up not too far from these caves.

JH: It's funny, 'cause at that same exact time I found them on the internet. So I contacted them. I went up there, talked to them, talked down the price just enough...

(LOUD CRASH FROM THE KITCHEN AREA)

JM: Wow, that was impressive! At least no gunfire was involved…

JH: So we just scouted it out, worked that location and, I mean, I'd written that stuff originally and it's one of those situations where I write something and no matter how it's gonna get done, Ryan and I have an understanding that no matter how difficult, it's going to happen, we're going to get it done. And so it's just a matter of spending time up there.

Because I'd moved out there (London, England) without knowing any of the surroundings. I'd just written a script where a segment (Purgatory) took place in London. So, it's just a matter of taking time to find those locations, find the actors, and that was one of the lucky ones that turned out to be a complete blessing. To connect Purgatory (segment) to Dante's Inferno even more.

JM: Oh, yeah. I mean, it was a thread that ran all the way through that story line.

JH: Exactly.

JM: So, you say "lived in London?" You lived out there for a while?

JH: Yeah, after we shot the Luke and Lucy segment. The funny part of it was I wrote the script, I gave it to Ryan. This Purgatory segment takes place in London, and he's like "Yeah. So we're gonna shoot in London?" And I said, "Yeah," and that was it.

So when I graduated from UTA - we both did, in 2004 - and, while I was still graduating, I was able to get a work visa. So I moved over to London right after we finished shooting the Luke and Lucy segment. I was there a couple days with just a suitcase. Went to a hostel, looked around for a job and decided to take one at this hotel, so I could get free room and board. Forget the pay. Free food, had a place to stay. It had free wireless internet, so if you've been over there, it's not cheap to get internet access. It really worked out perfectly, so I worked 12 hour days and then in my off time I worked on the film. I saved that money just to put towards the film.

And so then Ryan came out eventually and I scheduled everything so that whenever Ryan flew out there with a couple of people that had helped us out before, we had the crew and the cast all set up and we shot.

RH: Right off the plane we went to locations immediately.

JH: That day we'd signed the contracts for the locations in the caves.

RH: No time for jet lag.

JH: Exactly. I ran him around the city for location scouting: "here's where we're gonna shoot this, here's where we're gonna do that." Then, “hey, let's get some rest and next morning we start shooting.”

JM: And how many days did you shoot there?

JH: That segment, I believe, was scheduled out to seven or eight days... it was seven days, the Purgatory segment was seven days.

And then after we finished the seven days, we took a nice little treat for ourselves, a trip to Prague.

JM: Wow!

JH: Me, Ryan and Cecil (Cecil Sparks, Key Grip) all went to Prague. We got to enjoy that before we came back to shoot the Lyric segment.

JM: I hear that's a really freaky place.

RH: It's awesome. It's probably one of the most historically preserved places...

JH: And it's the only place I've ever been to that... it's just fantastical. You can go to other places and they're still kind of rooted in what you're familiar with, but Prague was just a fantasy world. They had the most outstanding doors I've ever seen.

JM: Don't they have a lot of carvings of bones and skeletons?

RH: We went to a chapel that was actually decorated with 40,000 human skeletons.

JH: It's about an hour out of Prague, we took a day trip out there. And Ryan and I got to enjoy it. Cecil was a little bit hung over from Absinthe shots he'd done over the weekend, but... he stayed in the van, so he missed out on that wonderful place.

JM: O.K., let's see... has there been any other means of distribution for the film other than direct marketing via your website?

JH: Other than reviews that we've had, other sites that have included it, other write-ups that we did as far as marketing, the website's been the exclusive deal. We had Amazon and a few select stores in LA and the Dallas area - just independent stores.

But other than that, what we did with Wednesday is we maintained all the distribution rights. 'Cause we have these three films coming out (Pale Horse, Blue Like Isolation and Elevators) that are gonna be on a different level. These next three are not only artistic, but they're meant to be also extremely marketable.

So, after that, whenever those start doing well, those Wednesday rights become a lot more valuable. Instead of just selling for cheap and not giving Wednesday its due. We maintain those for later on, it'll be a little bit better investment for us.

RH: Wednesday's the kind of film that, after people see these next three films, they're gonna further appreciate.

JH: That's why it's our first feature. I mean, we could have done something like "let's make a lot of money," or "let's do a cheap, cheesy horror film"... just make some money, sell it quick...

Arianne Martin: I've been in a few of those! (laughs)

JM: Really?

AM: Yeah!

JM: Well, see? You'll be in good shape to carry 'em through Pale Horse. It is gonna be a horror film, right?

JH: Yeah, it's gonna be a horror film. It's horrific. It's a drama at its core. Maybe some of the most intense drama I've ever gotten to direct or see on film. The relationship between the characters, I get thrilled even thinking about it.

But when those horrific moments come in, too, that takes it to its genre place, it's... I mean, we have big plans for Pale Horse. It's not horror in the condescending sense.

RH: It's gonna stand out from most of the stuff that's being made right now.

JH: By acting alone.

RH: We're actually gonna have genuine performances. There's not a camp factor that a lot of the horrors come out with.

JH: The way Kubrick defined genres? That's the way we hope to make it eventually. We have to define genres and kind of redefine them in our own artistic vision, the way we see it. So we're taking a horror genre with a lot of the elements that are throwbacks to these favorite films of ours, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Halloween, all these films that we love... it's gonna be something special.

AM: It's gonna have the intensity of like Silence of the Lambs, too, because those are so based on performances. And it's got that drama, but with the blood and guts...

RH: You can still call it a horror film, but there's something very scary when the person you should be fearing in the film is sane. It's easy to kind of write them off whenever they're insane and they're just killing people, maniacal things going on, but whenever it's sane and calculating, and you don't know what the purpose is, and you don't know if it's good or bad, that's pretty horrific. And then you have all these other relationship problems going on.

FM: I think too many horror films nowadays focus so much on getting to the crunch of the action, and the gore, it's so annoying. This is so based on the characters that hopefully the audience will forget if they heard anything about the horror element at all.

JH: I would love this product to be marketed as true drama. Like art house drama first and then to wide release? More people will be shocked. When things start escalating and inevitability sets in? It's gonna shock people because it's... they're gonna be so wrapped up in these characters and they're gonna be so emotionally attached - THEN the horrific elements come in and it's gonna blow 'em away.

RH: And we're talking reality, also. You look at most horror movies, and they're polished. They're too clean. The lighting is artificial - you know, and what we're trying to do is bring a reality to the film that... you know, you're starting to see in a lot of influence in film right now.

JH: Like United 93, that's a great example. Taking something on a real standpoint, making the camera.. you know, the story dictated the camera moves. Like Children of Men. The story dictated everything, and then when you saw the camera work, it just flowed, it's like "this is what is supposed to happen."

We've already started talking to actors; we haven't started talking with casting directors yet, but that will be very soon. Like Elias McConnell, he's been in Elephant, he's been in Paris, je t'aime, he's gonna come in for a small role, he's in talks for that, that's a done deal. And he's gonna knock it out of the park.

So it's gonna be exciting to see some of these art house character actors that tend to be sort of a certain genre, into another element, in a horror film. That gives them artistic credibility.

FM: What's great though, for those people that really do love that pure horror genre, we'll have kind of allusions and moments where it'll satisfy those guys.

JH: I was nervous when Frank and Ryan both read the script for the first time because they are horror fanatics, they've studied up on it, they know what they're talking about... Romero and Carpenter? Those are big influences on all of us but them especially, so when they read this thing that's a tip of the hat to the genre and alluding to certain things but kind of turning it on its head, I was nervous when they read it because, like anyone, I cared what they think. But they...

RH: It's gonna be awesome.

FM: It's pure Americana, pure horror.

JH: Like I said, with the dramatic elements, as a director, I can't wait to work with the actors involved.

RH: Might even try to sneak in a cameo of like a horror legend somewhere in there.

JM: Bruce Campbell maybe?

All: Noooo!

JH: Not one of the ones where the whole thing stops when the guy appears and everyone says, "Oh, there's that guy!", but more like if Romero walked by and tipped his hat at someone - only a few select people are gonna know who that is. But that'll be the extent of that.

Horror sells. Even bad horror. But this is gonna be incredible horror, and we're excited.

JM: I'm excited. It's hard to be around you and not get excited.

JH: Pale Horse is in preproduction. It's going ahead.

JM: Who wrote the script?

JH: Me. On all of these I've written the script. I wrote the script for Wednesday. And Ryan and I've co-written a lot of stuff, Frank's a writer. Arianne's written some stuff. All these next ones are based on scripts I've done.

JM: Super. How have sales been on Wednesday? Satisfactory, as far as you're concerned?

JH: It's recouped our initial out-of-pocket expense; we've had some other investors help with the DVD that we'll be able to pay back soon. But that's not our goal (the money). Ryan and I wanted to create something that would be looked on later as art, when people go back and say, "Well what was their first feature like?", they'll know that we had artistic integrity from the beginning. And they'll see that we put all that we had with that little budget in there, and were able to do well, so I think, the marketing, the exposure we've gotten, has exceeded our expectations. I expected it would be a couple of years before people would get… you know, it was a very personal story, I'll never be able to make something so personal again, so it's kinda nice.

JM: Sure. You probably don't want to.

JH: Well, there's personal elements in everything...

AM: Yeah, let's hope there's not a Thursday.

JH: Exactly.

JM: That's what my wife said. My wife said, "is there gonna be a Thursday?"

(General laughter)

JH: Oh, I've heard so many different things on that score, it's like, "the next one will be called Weekend, it won't be a remake of the Goddard film but it'll be...”

RH: I don't know how many Abbott and Costello moments I've had with the title.

JM: Speaking of the title – and speaking of my wife - she suggested that one of the determinants for using it might be the little ditty that goes, "Wednesday's child is full of woe."

JH: Uh... I mean, there's some elements from everything.

RH: Hump day.

JH: It's basically just hump day and this is about love.

AM: Whoa! (laughter)

JH: But I think that's just Ryan's interpretation. But as the writer, it's really just the actual day that a lot of these real events happened.

JM: O.K.

JH: And other than that, there's a second death in each segment. I mean, in the first three segments. There's an initial death, and then there's a second death. With Luke and Lucy, it's the death of their unborn child. In Purgatory, it's Harold. So there's an initial death and then there's a second one, and that second death always takes place on Wednesday. And so it connects on that level.

And Wednesday... it's full of woe! But, really, it just connects to a personal day, as far as some things that happened to me.

JM: So, how in heck did you fund this thing? Are you all independently wealthy to begin with?

(General head shaking, nervous laughter)

JH: We're all... you know, low to middle class upbringing. Probably as middle class as it gets. We've all had amazing support from parents. The parents have been supporting our art, emotionally... and I think that's just something special with this group is that the family has just been incredibly supportive. I mean every one of ours. I think of all our parents and how supportive they are.

Financially, Wednesday started out, it was all out of pocket. Stuff I'd saved, what I saved in London, some family members, uncle, grandparents, things like that, were able to invest as much as they could. To just help me to survive and get these films going. But so much of it was just everything we had, everything I earned...

JM: Did you max out your credit cards?

JH: Didn't max out my credit cards. Put some debt on there that I would rather not have had, but no, really it was just whatever I could save, whatever dvds I could sell went towards it.

RH: He was making pounds while he was over there so it kinda helped out a little bit.

JM: Exchange rate?

JH: A little bit. Slight. I spent them while I was over there, I didn't bring them back to the states, but... it woulda been cool if I'd earned all those and brought them back and used it here.

JM: Let's see here...

(Justin takes over the interview as I search for my place in the notes:)

JH: How long have you and your wife been married?

JM: Ten years, it'll be eleven on Feb. 12.

JH: Congratulations! You have somebody you can watch films with, too!

JM: Yeah, although she tends to have a short attention span. You know, character-driven films, Anne tends to go off and play mah jongg on the computer or something. And I'll still be there, and she'll come back in later and say, "well, what happened?" It's like...

(general laughter)

JH: The next film is gonna be called Mah Jongg.

JM: I'll tell her that.

JH: It'll just be someone playing mah jongg for two hours straight.

JM: Well, I've got the perfect actress for you. Because, you know, the verisimmilitude there is just unbeatable.

(I take back control of the interview before this can get further out of hand:)

O.K., this question, after seeing the final segment of Wednesday, is kind of moot in regard to Luke and Lucy, but as far as the Harold and Norma episodes, were you drawing on personal experience? How did you come up with those story lines?

JH: Really, what I wanted to do was show just the different elements of love and loss, how people deal with death and how it affects love and relationships, regardless of how new, or old, or painful the relationship had been. I just wanted to show different age groups, so when I decided to write about this older couple, which I was really passionate about writing about an older couple and showing a real connection there, because you don't see that in a lot of films these days. And there's such a passionate part that's connected with these people. You know, if it's not young these days, people don't buy into it. So I really wanted to show that there's such a connection between this older couple: this pain at being left behind. So really it's drawn on the same themes that the Luke and Lucy... pain is pain. I think writers should be able to apply any experiece, and adapt it toward other things. I mean, if I was in this certain situation and felt this pain, that's applicable to all these things to me now. So it draws on that personal experience. Everything about the story that connects to Narcissus Flower (the final segment of Wednesday) draws on a personal event.

While writing Purgatory, my ex-fiance and I kind of started having these random meetups. While she was over there (London) for school, I ran into her in the underground. The odds are just ridiculous: she's standing there - this was my second or third day in London - and suddenly like, "wow, in this huge city we've already run into each other." And of course this sinking feeling comes into play, O.K., I'm motivated to write again, I've got a lot more motivation. I'll apply this story to the Harold and Linda story. And, so, what was weird about Purgatory was I'd start writing these events, and the next day, I'd meet up with her, somehow, and they'd happen. Identical. The bus scene, the bed scene with the crying - all those are identical to what had just happened. I mean I'd write 'em and then suddenly they'd just happen. It was a really odd experience.

And that's what kind of bore Narcissus Flower. We were walking down Leicester Square, and she just goes, "I finally saw 8 1/2," which is one of my favorite films of all time, and she goes, "I was finally able to see it in class, and this is your 8 1/2." And I said, "how so?", and she said, "well, you're trying to make this film and stuff's coming to life, and it's kind of falling apart." And it wasn't, I mean the film wasn't literally falling apart, but within the story of Wednesday that's what it became. Out of this grew Narcissus Flower. All these self-involved moments of pain became this other element that I didn't even know was there. It's trying to put my artistic vision into it and maintain a realism and then bring these characters into it - it's like this is crying out to be made, and it evolved into that.

I mean, Narcissus was not part of the original plan. There was gonna be three stories that you know slightly were connected, and just kind of wrapped up. Norma reached paradise, that element, and suddenly paradise wasn't an option at that point, and suddenly it transcended and became Narcissus Flower.

JM: Art imitates life.

JH: Yeah, art imitates life, life imitates art, just kept going one against the other, and eventually Wednesday became what it was.

FM: And what's neat about Narcissus Flower is it transcends genre - you can't really tell it's a documentary, but you can? It blends fiction with reality...

JH: There's so many real elements in it.

RH: There's a lot of real elements in it. You'll see Justin and hear my voice in there. There's certain elements that are real.

JM: Oh, it's disorienting! I mean, it shakes you up, because you don't know where it's coming from.

JH: Right. I mean, really what it should hopefully say - and this is what's great about Wednesday - from looking that people who view it - people may not like one segment, but it seems like most people always connect to one. Something in one of the segments, someone will connect to emotionally, and they'll talk about it. And whether someone likes the film or not, they'll talk about it afterward - that's kind of exciting, because it's just easier than writing it off. They're thinking about it...

JM: That means it made an impression on them.

JH: Yeah. I mean, if it's even slight, if they're talking about it, thinking about it, it makes them look at their own relationships, or makes them look at love that they had... that's great!

RH: There've actually been breakups, and people getting together over it.

JH: Couples that have split up - got back together. And there was a couple that were together at the premiere, broke up. They got in a massive fight afterwards. So it affects people, it gets people thinking.

FM: Talk about a personal element too, like Justin's situation: I went in to do Narcissus Flower - the woman who's playing my ex-girlfriend is actually my ex-girlfriend.

JH: I cast them together to...

FM: And the man who plays my cameraman/confidante, my friend, is actually my friend, and I was coming to terms with my own heartbreak just as Justin did the writing. I was able to come through it with the acting and basically playing a version of him.

AM: And my scene, I was going through a big breakup at the time, with somebody I'd been with for three and a half years... we were all kind of going through the...

JH: Her mother had just died.

JM: So you're all putting these genuine emotions...

AM: Yeah, it's all very real.

JH: And that lets you adapt the script. When it came to these things coming, I'd give them (the actors) an option - you know, if you're not in a place emotionally to do this, let me know - and almost everyone said, "Use it." You know. "Push these buttons when it comes time." And what registers is a lot of real emotions. There's so much of Frank's heart, so much of Arianne's heart, so much of mine. Phil Goldacre, who plays Harold? - I mean, he had been - he WAS Harold. He'd lived a lot of that pain. And a lot of that heartache was him. Erich Redman, who was also in United 93, brought a real personal level to Virgil, with just experieces he's had with acting: he's a German guy who normally gets cast as Nazis. And him just being able to play this different character, this almost spiritual guide to Harold, he was able to put certain personal levels into it and substitute those into what he's experiencing, and as the character. Linda (actress Adrienne Marks), her mom had just died, and again she said, "no, use it." I gave her options like, if you can't do this, let me know. And she said, "no, USE it!"

JM: Method acting at its...

JH: Yeah, it transcends that, it was just a cathartic experience for everyone.

JM: Well, it shows onscreen, I mean everything is really genuine. Sometimes it goes so deep that it's uncomfortable. But, you know, that's what art does.

(Nodding heads, general agreement with the wise sayings of the gray-haired interviewer.)

JM: Your UTA contacts: did you make use of them when you were putting the production together?

JH: I'll start by answering that one. There's a lot of amazing, wonderful people that have helped us at UTA. Andy Anderson, Bart Weiss were some of our best friends while we were going there. But what's interesting is while we were graduating a lot of those ties were cut off for no reason. And so there's not bad blood there, we love them to death, I mean they were like family to us, But there was a certain kind of connection and emotional support that was just suddenly gone.

JM: How sad.

JH: Yeah. I mean, it hurt. It still hurts when I think about it 'cause I'll send an email to them updating it, won't even get a response. And we were close. And that's kind of odd.

JM: What'd you do? Short-sheet their beds?

JH: Exactly. You would think so. I mean, up until graduation... maybe when someone gets tenure they stop really caring. But that's a whole other story. But there's Ryan and I with our connection, Frank's a connection from UTA, I met him my last semester there; Arianne, she came in on a student project that I directed my senior year, my last semester, we met there. My ex, who's the basis for a lot of the stuff in Wednesday, I met that semester. So - this film, there's so many UTA elements in there.

And the last film we did at UTA was Confessions, it was a thesis project where they hire out of the class, and we had this great opportunity. I was director, Ryan was DP (Dir. of Photography), and it was just... talk about a downward spiral. I mean it taught me everything I don't want to do in this profession. It's like getting a studio hack - and getting told everything you have to do. Rip the art out of it - rip the heart out of it, not make it personal and just do as you're told. And I learned some great things there, but what I learned the most is what I don't want to do, and that was a great experience.

RH: Justin and I, we had spent all night one night making story boards for the shots, and they were like - we were really excited about it - and they just scrapped them all.

JH: Just to teach a lesson, and so what that did is that led into Wednesday, which is like, "no, this is never gonna happen again," we're gonna do a personal project rather than do a big money project where someone's gonna tell you to... you know, "I'm a businessman, I know what art is." Instead, it's gonna let the artist create the art, and it was a great experience for that.

UTA was an incredible school. I went to UT Austin originally and then transferred up to UTA because of how great a school it is. It's just a shame that some of those contacts of some of those people that, you know, were very dear to us didn't happen. But we learned a lot from them.

RH: I agree with so much at that school. But then, going into film - I mean, I've been an artist since I've been in diapers, and to me, not to pursue art in my life is an insult to my maker.

JH: It was a perfect last-semester step, to take that class and know exactly what we don't want to do. I'll work any job to make our art, it doesn't matter, it'll get made.

RH: To me, film is the ultimate expression of art, because it culminates all aspects of art. And it actually has one of the best feedback systems with art. You actually get people to watch what you've done for a period of time that's longer than any art museum, and you get instant feedback. Which is amazing.

JH: It's such a great medium, to be able to be analyzed and affect people.

AM: Yeah, and it influences people so heavily. Because how many times have you watched a movie, and you just change with that feeling...

JM: Oh, yeah, it just changes your entire personality, going out the door.

AM: ...and your opinion and whatever, and you may not believe in a single thing that that film was like all about, but if they put it in the right way all of a sudden you're like "Yeah, wow..."

RH: Exactly. Like Rumble in the Bronx. I just came out like wanting to hit things and kick things.

FM: I think like what Ryan said, how it combines all these different forms of art into one. It's amazing when you think about it how even in the depression - how films... people spent their money and their pennies on films so they could get out of their lives.

JH: It's escapism, but what's great is that escapism doesn't have to be entrapment... it can actually be intelligent.

FM: It's like people go to see a scary movie because they want to have that feeling. They want to have that different range of emotions. I mean most people in life don't have to deal with - at least most people in the United States - they don't have to deal with a horrific element all the time.

RH: The thing about films is you have to collaborate...

JH: In order to have a happy production.

RH: Yeah, and not only that but it really also culminates all of the professions you can think of. Between law, carpentry, electrician... I mean, you could go down the list. A film almost takes every profession in the world and puts it together.

JH: And if you have passionate collaborators, there's no tension on the set. Our film shoots have just been very blessed for that. Ryan and I have a film shoot where everyone's involved, everyone is collaborating, everyone's creating art. Everyone knows their role and they're doing an incredible job at it, and there's no hiccups.

FM: They're there for the right reasons.

RH: And everyone respects each others' roles, and I think that's a lot of problems that businesses have, when anybody's led to be under a superiority complex and like put down on a different pedestal - we're all equals on these things.

JH: They're getting hired because they're gonna do something I can't do. Everyone complements everyone. I mean, Ryan and I have been collaborating on student films, other things - I mean we complement each other - we complement each other really well. I mean he does things I wish I could do. And hopefully vice-versa.

RH: Yeah.

JH: I mean, hopefully it's one of those relationships that just... whenever you get artists together that are friends and passionate about what they do, and have a goal that they're both working towards, and just a slightly different eye and perspectives - it's exciting. Whether it's a financial success, whether it gets out to everyone, it becomes a personal success. There's just something special about being able to create that kind of art with someone.

RH: And personally, as an artist, I'm more interested in leaving a legacy, that I actually contributed something that I can be proud of. You know, instead of making Scooby Do III or something that really has no substantial meaning...

JM: But fills your pockets.

RH: But fills your pockets. That stuff is forgotten the day after. I'm really interested in making something that's gonna last. Stick around for the next generation.

JM: I found one perhaps unintentionally humorous element to the otherwise bleak initial portion of the Harold/Purgatory storyline: it's where the fella's on the bus and hears the guitar music playing, and he wanders back to the back of the bus and finds the guy actually with the guitar, playing the guitar music - very similar to the Woody Allen episode from Love and Death, where we hear the string music accompanying the scene's action and he pulls aside a curtain to reveal an actual string quartet.

(Brief but total silence)

JH: Well, I mean... as far as comedic elements, that's a character that I always saw... there's gotta be a certain over-the-top absurdity: there's the fantastical elements, there's the serious elements that he has, connecting to Virgil and the Divine Comedy, and then there's the comical elements.

The first time you meet this guy (the guitar player) is in a bathroom. He's singing in a bathroom stall up on the top floor of a hotel. That's the character introduction. Then he's suddenly on a bus. This guy just shows up in these different elements, he's kind of a... well, he's very serious but dryly played like a kind of spiritual guide.

But as far as like influence on that, I mean, Woody Allen has been an influence on so many things I've done. Chaplin. Elevators, which is one of the next films we're shooting, has loads of British influence from a comedic standpoint. Blake Edwards. I mean, Fawlty Towers is one of my favorite shows of all time. So I mean, I think some of those absurd moments just sneak their way in.

And I always thought of this guy as kind of a slight escape. I mean he's singing about all this woe, in a different language (French), telling this guy exactly what he needs to get through his thick skull. But through the language and communication it's not quite there. He's not ready to learn it yet, until he gets to that point. Where he is ready to learn it.

I mean, I loved that character just because there's such an absurdity to it. I mean, Harold's just sitting there on the bus kind of going through the city like, "woe is me, woe is me," and here's his friend with the guitar that he doesn't have any kind of connection with except that they happen to be in the same places, and he recognizes a few words in this lovely language of French - I mean, there's an absurdity to it as he's guiding himself through Purgatory - there's a slight relief for those who can pick up on it, and for others it translates a different way, maybe "oh, wow, they're really connected," that's some of their favorite moments from that standpoint.

RH: Erich Redman was such a joy to work with.

JH: Yeah, exactly, he was cracking us up. He's like this British/German Christopher Walken. He's like you'd expect him to be in person. I mean, the bathroom scene - it's like the only time in my career as a filmmaker that I can remember just not being able to compose myself. Period. Except for my very first time directing.

RH: He's like peeking out of the bathroom stall, poking his head out saying...

JH: I mean, he'd poke his head out at the most inopportune times and Ryan and I'd just lose it, and that was actually the last stuff we shot for the film. In Purgatory. It was a great little going out sequence that it took forever to get because he's hilarious in person.

I mean, up on those scenes, whenever he's playing the guitar, some of the conversations we had, he's like "Oh, I'd never date fat women." We're just cracking up, "what'd you say?", he's like "I'd never date fat women. Sure, they're good to you, and they'll treat you well, but ahh, you're gonna have to deal with that..." and we're "what are you saying?" The guy is just...

RH: And he's a determined text messager, because he'd always interrupt us when he got a "textie."

JH: He's gonna be a joy to work with again.

JM: Oh, are you gonna work with him again?

JH: Absolutely, I wanna put him in a comedic role. The guy actually has a lot of great comedic timing. I mean obviously, he gets cast as a lot of Nazis, so that should show... his comedic timing (laugh).

RH: And he was hilarious in United 93.

JH: Not at all! No, he's a terrific dramatic actor and I can't wait to see some of his comedic work.

JM: Yeah, he's very dry - you can tell he would be funny if he intended to be funny.

JH: Going through the casting process that role had some of the greatest range of talent, and widest variety of interpretations of the character. That was a joy casting that because you'd get these different interpretations of what people thought the character was, and what it came down to was we have this lyrical romantic language of French, and you cast a German to play that character. I mean, quoting Fawlty Towers, Germans don't have a sense of humor. And I'm part German. But you take that and give him a beautiful language like French and this serious quality and this dryness the character has, he was perfect for the role, and he was such a professional.

RH: And you all actually wrote the music together, didn't you?

JH: Yeah. I wrote the lyrics and we translated it, and we translated it again and then came up with the music. I came up with some selections of the ones I wanted to steer towards as far as sound, and then we wrote that together.

RH: And you can hear him playing the accordion at the end.

JH: Yeah, that song at the end is his song, but with him performing it with the accordion. A couple months after we finished wrapping Wednesday, he sent me that in an email saying "hey I got this recording of me playing the theme song on an accordion," and you can tell it's in a room somewhere and he's playing it and I was like "O.K., great, that's going in there."

RH: He's still kept contact and that's cool. He's been working on big movies like The Illusionist and stuff, but he still actually sends us emails.

JH: Yeah, he was in United 93. He does... I mean, he was in Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List... so he does a lot of work.

JM: I'll have to go look for him in those, 'cause I didn't make the connection.

JH: I think in Schindler's List he has a smaller role. I mean in Saving Private Ryan he has a decent-sized role. And in United 93 he's really apparent. It'll be an Oscar-nominated film, probably (Ed. note: it received a Best Director nom for Paul Greengrass.)

RH: And he's in a few scenes in The Illusionist, you can spot him out.

JM: Justin, are you a fan of Ingmar Bergman films? I found some suggestive influences there.

JH: I love Ingmar Bergman. I mean, as far as directly influencing Wednesday... he's an influence on me as a filmmaker, absolutely, on Wednesday, directly you know, I can't cite a specific example...

(Insightful interviewer going down in flames...)

FM: Scenes from a Marriage - like I was watching it just recently and it reminded me a lot of the Harold and Linda story...

(A parachute! Frank to the rescue! God love him.)

JH: Well that's what you said, and that was such a great compliment the first time you saw it... and that was a terrific compliment. As far as a direct influence - he's just an influence because he's a master.

RH: Justin and I, we watch everything. We've gone through this... this is part of our subconscious.

JH: Blue Like Isolation, which is another film coming up... really minimalist, almost single character story. I call that my Bergman film.

AM: We're really excited about that.

JH: It's Persona. Obviously there's some elements of Persona, montage and things like that, they do like Bergman...

RH: Like Isolation, I've been really getting into Werner Herzog right now, and just going through his library, it's just phenomenal.

JH:Isolation will take place in Alaska, it's supposed to be isolated kind of up on the woods/forests/mountains...

RH: So we'll have to deal with some bears.

JM: You're gonna need a 7mm magnum, then.

JH: That's Frank's department.

(laughter)

JH: Then Elevators, we're gonna film that in Fort Worth. Dallas is too big. I wrote it with like Olympia, Washington in mind, but Fort Worth should work even better. It takes place in a hotel. It's a hotel comedy, a dark crime comedy - a lot of absurdity, Hal Ashby, throw in a little Wes Anderson in there, a lot of Fawlty Towers, a lot of British comedy in general... I mean, Peter Sellers is my favorite actor, hands down, period. I adore Peter Sellers. And if he were alive, this is the film I'd want him to be a part of.

But of course he'd say, "no, who are you?"

JM: Yeah, he probably would now. But not after these three films come out.

JH: Heh. After this we'll be able to CGI Peter Sellers.

(Ed. note: it's along about here that the food arrives, along with more beers, and the train of thought frequently jumps the tracks as tomato sauce and feta cheese compete for the attention of the participants. So I've edited some stuff out.)

FM: That's what's gonna be great about these next three films. Not only are they completely different genres - just when the audience is like, "oh it's those guys that make those type of films" - then there's the next one and they're like "oh, I get it, it still has some drama" and then we do a comedy. And they'll think, "what is this?"

JH: One of the joys of these next ones is, people are gonna think "hey, I've seen Wednesday," and they know what we can do. Everything, every camera move that's in there was calculated, every closeup, every editing choice was calculated to fit the story. It's meant to be a very intimate story with a realistic setting. The reason we shot mini dv, we took our limitations, embraced them, and shot this real personal story that could've been shot on a low budget.

And then these other ones, when people see them they'll say, "wait, the camera movements and the action - it all suits that story, too! These guys know what they're doing.

JM: Speaking of equipment, is it all stuff you guys own? Did you lease it?

RH: For Wednesday, I own a professional mini dv camera, and I bought lenses for it specifically to shoot with.

JH: We'd planned on using mini dv from the beginning because it was something that would allow us to shoot these caves, in low lighting, and would allow us to shoot in all these situations and roll multiple cameras so we could capture these elements and really just let the actors go. For this film, it would not have been possible to shoot on film. At all. I mean, the cave stuff wouldn't have happened, so much of it wouldn't have happened, and a lot of the acting moments wouldn't have happened. All of Narcissus Flower wouldn't have happened. It's one of those situations where the story... the necessity was mini dv, and we didn't try to make it something else that it wasn't.

RH: And also, video has the quality of personal space, and your home videos? The frame rate alone makes you think of home movies. Having that look brings it to an intimate, personal setting.

JH: There was other equipment that we rented. There were situations when I had to go back into my 12-hour day job in London because it... Frank came over to be in the Narcissus Flower part of the film, and he had to go return the equipment in the rain while I returned to my porter job in the hotel... and he was so dedicated and completely selfless and helped me out with the production. I mean, he's an associate producer, and that segment wouldn't have been possible if he hadn't been part of it.

And there's a lot of those moments where everyone's wearing these different hats, everyone's doing these different jobs, but they don't care because everyone's passionate about it. Otherwise, if you don't have that passion, you have people griping in the background, saying "when do we eat, when do we go home." You don't have it with a film like Wednesday because everyone's passionate, and everyone's personally connected.

RH: And it's all about your intention going into it: why are we making this, you know. And that comes across. Certain people do things, but at the end of the day they're home - out of sight, out of mind. We do this, regardless. So I think that's a big difference right there.

JM: I know you guys are passionate about it. No doubt.

(Food being cleared from the table; clattering of plates and forks.)

JH: Wow, now I feel like going running.

JM: Or if you're like me, you feel like sleeping.

JH: For purposes of the interview, I'll say I feel like running.

JM: You have a three-film shooting schedule for 2007. Are you insane?

JH: Ambitious. We know our limits and we know what we can do. We're prepped. We know what to do. Whenever people invest, and put a little bit more money in it, what's gonna be created is gonna be exciting, because for three films for the price of one, we're gonna make three films that look like they're $10 million each. It's exciting. Knowing the frugality, the discipline, the artistic vision and kind of knowing how to be innovative, is gonna let these films kind of grow and become something else.

JM: Any takers on your website offer for investors?

JH: Actually we're in the middle of talking to a lot of people right now. Pale Horse is going, it's off the ground, that one's in pre-production. We'll start the others in pre-production while all that's going on. So it's a matter of meeting with people right now to just continue and get this going. I mean, there will be takers. There's a lot of people that'll invest in real estate, they'll invest in stocks... I mean, there's less risk and higher reward for films. And, you know, three films for the price of one.

In order to keep talent local, we need local money to support us. We need local people to say, "hey, wait, let's keep these kids home grown, let's see what they can do, let's give them a chance, let's be part of a legacy, and let's make a hell of a lot of money." And for people that are actually educated and know what this is about, it's gonna be hard for a lot of 'em to resist. That's where we're at right now is getting these people, and really seeing... this is a kind of chance to open people's eyes.

RH: Films help the local economy. Not just obviously the short term, the making of the movie, but after. Like horror movies, like Dawn of the Dead, for instance. That mall? That shopping mall gets visited by thousands of people specifically because the film was shot there.

JH: Initially, you have it plugged directly back into the economy creating jobs, not only in the film, but hotel use, car rentals, catering - everything helps the economy. For investors, you're gonna make your money back with this horror film, this drama - every one of them is so marketable, and then you get to put the money back and create jobs and help the economy out immediately.

RH: And not only that, if we make a film here it's gonna attract other filmmakers to come here and do the same thing.

AM: But the neat thing is that Texas is getting on the map for film and television. Cause we have like Friday Night Lights here, Prison Break... and I mean Austin already has a big name but Dallas is just beginning. Right now like the Film Commission is pushing really hard to get films to come here.

JM: Yeah, they lost out on a lot of money over the last few years.

AM: Yeah! They're like going off to Louisiana and places like that. This is a great place to make films, because you have everything here.

JM: Are there limitations here that you might not face somewhere else?

AM: We need tax incentives.

JH: We just did this article in Fort Worth Magazine, and the main thing I tried to emphasize is they spend a lot of time preserving the old but they're not too concerned about the new. We know about the history of Fort Worth, I mean Dallas and Fort Worth could bring in so many different generations of artists. It could easily be, "Dallas is a great place to make a film", or "Texas is a great place to make a film," and then "well, who else is there?" That's the position we're anxious to be in.

AM: There's a bunch of great acting talent here. But Louisiana is getting all the great Texas actors - you have to drive 3 1/2 hours to go to Louisiana. Or Oklahoma.

JH: It was New Mexico until they changed things there.

AM: It's like, if you bring it here we already have the talent, we already have the crews, we just need the extra incentives.

JH: Because if we go through a studio in LA, we're forced to relocate there. You can't expect them to pay for it and keep us here. And then suddenly you're working under someone else.

AM: Unless you're Robert Rodriguez.

JH: Yeah, but he went to Sundance and paid for it. But he started out by getting a nice contract, and he was able to do that for six films in a row, and he was able to sit back and do what he wanted to do and made a lot of money doing it.

And that's really the key is local investors, to just work up an idea. This is the next real estate, the next stock. There's such high reward, I mean ten years from now it'll be up there, it'll be considered that. It's only gonna continue to grow.

RH: And it's something you're gonna keep and enjoy, and you've actually contributed to something that's gonna be around, part of a legacy: a slight sliver of immortality, if you will.

JM: Post-production of the three films you're gonna spread out, I guess.

JH: We'll be doing some post-production while in pre-production on the other films...

RH: Pale Horse, there's some digital effects I'm gonna be working on.

JH: There's gonna be a lot of great makeup and a lot of digital effects in Pale Horse.

JH: Pale Horse and Blue Like Isolation we're gonna finish in time to get them to Sundance, and then Elevators we're hopefully gonna have in time for Tribeca. 'Cause those are kinda right up their alleys.

JM: Elevators isn't gonna be like The Lift, right? You've seen The Lift? About an elevator that eats people?

(Uproarious laughter)

All: No, no!

JH: Think Out of Sight... it's (like) an Elmore Leonard novel. I mean, Elmore Leonard, I love his novels. It's that type of script. It's a pulp-type character, and then you throw into it some of the old romantic comedy. There's a little of the screwball comedies, that type of thing, a throwback to those... a little bit of What's Up, Doc? in there. Fawlty Towers... a whole lot of British comedy influence in there. Peter Sellers in general, Blake Edwards collaborations with him. There's no horror involved, it's just a dark crime comedy with a lot of comedy.

FM: Except for the ending when the elevator eats them all.

JH: Yeah, except for that.

(Laughter all around)

JM: I love the quote from the I Ching you've associated with the Blue Like Isolation web page.

JH: What's great about choosing that quote is that it brings on this idea that hermits aren't necessarily scared of other things, there's just a superiority that goes into them, where they keep the inferior at a distance with their reserve.

So you have this element of, O.K., this is a superior man, but he's anything but. So it's a study of the character of masculinity, it's a study of the past and what we're gonna pay for, and what lines will eventually converge, and it's all gonna add up, and you will answer for your sins, you will answer for what you did, and man is man, and will be judged. There's certain things in a man's heart that they let go for years, and eventually it's gonna catch up to 'em, it's gonna kick 'em in the ass. And that's kinda what it deals with: this man has led a life, we don't necessarily know what it is, but there's certain elements of it that're gonna come back that he's gonna have to answer for.

JM: Hm. So this is the darkest of the next three.

JH: It is. And we're hoping to get someone like a Walken, a Christopher Walken, a Keitel - a name actor in there - it's just a two week shoot.

JM: That would be a coup, wouldn't it.

JH: That's the theme of what makes a man, and what we think makes a man. It's just a fascinating study, because we'll have this representation of this guy being something but... I mean, if we had to answer for everything we did, it would be a tough day of judgement.

RH: I'm really excited about showing nature. And just getting into the essence of, you know, cycles of life, and time passing.

JH: And with Blue Like Isolation, it's gonna be in a location where this man has isolated himself in nature, and really he doesn't even have to answer to nature, it's just man vs. himself. And if he believes in God, then God plays in the equation, too. And if he doesn't, then his conscience - whatever he considers it is - is what he's gonna have to answer to. Blue Like Isolation is extremely dark. It looks like the least marketable, but it has the potential to be...

RH: It has a lot of potential. Take a name actor that hasn't actually shown for a while, into something different - and it could be a really award-winning type of position.

JM: I'd love to see Walken.

JH: For this picture? Can you imagine him with a beard?

FM: And get him not to be Walken?

JH: I mean spend some time talking to him about getting away from some of the vocal patterns that he's now turned into caricature, and see him go back to something, you know, like The Dead Zone, Deer Hunter, something like that... I would love to see that.