Saturday, September 29, 2007
Gloves are off as Trinity vote looms
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Keeping up with the Trinity
The Trinity referendum is likely to dominate the headlines from now until November. If you want to keep up, here's how:
- A primer on the issues: The Advocate
- Our ongoing coverage, including an RSS feed
- Sam Merten's ongoing coverage, probably the deepest available
- Jim Schutze will almost assuredly write about nothing else until December.
DALLAS — The propaganda machines on both sides of the Trinity referendum are in full force with the November elections right around the corner. Mailers and TV ads are already about; sides have been chosen (by the politicos at least) and the dirt is flying. Will we get the zippy tollroad needed to connect South to Central Dallas? And if we do, will it cause Katrina-esque flooding?
Proponents of the existing plan have ostracized TrinityVote leader and City Councilwoman Angela Hunt as a shrill naysayer, making her the focus of much of their rhetoric. Many think that her position on the Trinity led her to be shut out when Mayor Tom Leppert doled out committee leadership positions.
The latest controversy, as originally reported by Sam Merten at Dallas Blog, involves allegations that city staffers are in a little too tight with the toll road advocates.
And speaking of Advocates, if you're confused about the issues involved, you should immediately go check out the Advocate's cover story package on the upcoming referendum. It covers all the issues from both sides and a nice multimedia presentation that puts all of this in perspective.
Look for our exclusive video of the recent League of Women Voters debate next week.
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Comments
Clay213 Anonymous
I'm probably going to sound like a 'whiny naysayer' but am I the only one who thinks this whole plan is really stupid?
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Rawlins Gilliland Verified
No Clay. You are not.
But wanta bet what was said when they announced 5700 years ago that they were going to build a huge pyramid on that bluff overlooking the Nile, made of individual 4000 pound limestone blocks?
Or, closer to home, what was said when they tried to build Whild Rock Lake in 1912?
Are even closer, what was said for years and years (and years) before the DFW Airport became a reality in the 1970s. That took an act of God to get passed. And as a result, Dallas went from being the 27th largest city in the USA to the 7th, and one of the more affluent. And with the advent of the future port-trade deals, a residual bonanza.
Trust me as one who knows; this city has always been a tug of war between those who thought small and/or were 'just passing through' and those visionaries who saw the impossible as the most Texas of propositions. See ya at the Fair! (Which was built in the middle of the Depression against all odds and opposition. And will be nestled ultimately darned near the town lakes and adjacent to the 10,000 acre park.)
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Clay213 Anonymous
I'm not talking about the odds..
I'm talking about how lame the whole thing sounds.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Rawlins Gilliland Verified
I understood that Clay. And to that I posted examples from the past. To demonstrate how every plan that has made this city potentially great and viable was originally dismissed with contemtuous sneers and jeers.
The very things that ultimately made this city the one many Pegasusians wanted to move to.... and where their future may be carved... were originally dismissed as wrong, prohibitive, foolish, frivilous, pointless, stupid and yes, 'lame'. This is but the latest and potentially the greatest in a long line of missed or stricken-while-the-iron-was-hot visionary opportunities.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
ericthegardener Anonymous
I agree with Rawlins. The people who say we can't have our park without a tollroad are shortsighted idiots who have no vision. Despite what they say we know that it IS possible!
Glad to hear that you'll be voting YES on November 6th Rawlins!
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Rawlins Gilliland Verified
Actually, to affirm 'yes' on the Trinity project and vote down the referendum, you must (stupid yes?) vote 'NO'. Go figure. In other words: VOTING 'NO' means proceed and start breaking ground ASAP.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Nathan Anonymous
"Actually, to affirm 'yes' on the Trinity project and vote down the referendum, you must (stupid yes?) vote 'NO'. Go figure. In other words: VOTING 'NO' means proceed and start breaking ground ASAP."
Rawlins, do you really believe they will break ground 'asap' if you vote no. Remember, there is still no secured funding for the road, many of the park features are unfunded as well. The NTTA still has no EIS and there is no final design with a final price tag. The video that the Mayor boasted was just some pretty graphics that more closely resembled the 2003 plan that the Army Corp has disallowed.
Dallas has a dozen freeways, none of which ever solved traffic. We don't have a centrally located park for our downtown revitalization. And, no, there is not 10,000 acres of parks. Much of that will be wetlands and forest, much different from a downtown park.
By the way, speaking of the forest, somebody tell the guy who writes for D magazine that the Great Trinity Forest and Bexar St is NOT in Oak Cliff.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Rawlins Gilliland Verified
Let me tell how things work here; they seldom do...until, viola', they do. The prime example I can cite as of 'late' is that we voted on DART in the late 1970s. (PS> EVERYOne said that NO one in Dallas 'would use mass transit', and look how successful the light rail has been). And it was 11 years before they began to build DART. Another gem is the widening of Central I-75. That was a huge debate. Endless. Years. 'Double Deck It', 'Just Say No'. That project took forever to get agreed to, then forever to begin, forever and ever to build, and then one day it was done, and very well, and everyone forgets the decades of trauma and division.
And per the 'D' error, I have lived at the northeast corner of the Great Trinity Forest for 24 years although of course it was only consolidated as same after 1998 bond vote and land secured, etc. So yes, I am quite used to parts of anything south of I-30 being called Pleasant Grove or Oak Cliff. When of course, in the case you name and 'D' mistook, that is South Dallas. The Trinity Forest is not in any way relative to Oak Cliff. At all.
South Dallas is an actual part of the city, not a geographic description. Meaning it is east of the Trinity/I-45, and west of White Rock Creek which runs through the Forest. Anything east of that creek (east of South Dallas and south of I-30 and north of I-175 is Southeast Dallas.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Nathan Anonymous
Rawlins, Army Corp projects do not have the highest success rate. Recent articles in Time and National Geographic have pointed to some flaws in the way flood control projects are funded and executed. Do you think it wise to build a freeway in a flood way? Are you supporting the project as is because you feel that it will be completed faster with the 'inside the levee' alignment or do you believe that we need a traffic solution and the Trinity River happens to provide a right-a-way that will work? (I strongly doubt the later.)
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
ericthegardener Anonymous
"Actually, to affirm 'yes' on the Trinity project and vote down the referendum, you must (stupid yes?) vote 'NO'. Go figure. In other words: VOTING 'NO' means proceed and start breaking ground ASAP."
Rawlins, in one of your previous messages you mentioned that "every plan that has made this city potentially great and viable was originally dismissed with contemtuous sneers and jeers". Because a park WITHOUT a tollroad running through the middle of it could help make our city great, but a park WITH a tollroad (a tollroad that they had to hide from us to get us to vote for it) is a horrible and cynical idea that will not benefit the people who have to pay for it, I thought you must be arguing for the VOTE YES side. You never explicitly said whose side you were on so I made an incorrect assumption based on the information you had given. Sorry about that!
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Clay213 Anonymous
How is building a freeway any more or less safe than building a park in a floodway?
The whole idea is just dumb.
A white water rafting course? How long till it is neglected and filled with trash? If it even gets built.
The Trinity stinks. The Trinity River Project stinks more.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Rawlins Gilliland Verified
Look, I have neither the time nor stamina to get in a public forum roundtable duke-it-out about the complicated debate at the core here.
One thing feels clear to me, perhaps actually several; Clay, you are reacting rather than reading, because your out-of-hand comments do not amount to debate but rather sound bite response pot shot out like skeet. For instance, the 'park' will be 10,000 sq ft so believe me, where you get the flood plain scenario relevant to the whole is beyond me.
That said, to simply dismiss this out of hand is likely to be by one who is either quite young or quite old and/or unlikely to have been here long or planning to stay.
As I have often said, I've lived on 1.7 acres on a hill two blocks from the northeast corner of the Trinity Forest for 24 years. I have been in that forest almost every day of my life for years, including this morning for 1 ½ hours with my mongrel ‘Honey’. That set of trails is an easy 7-10 miles from the Trinity River which is on the west side.
In other words, knowledge is power, and power is called for in this upcoming vote. Whether yes or no. Knowledge. Not mere rhetoric.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Clay213 Anonymous
I don't care to debate anything about it: I think the whole idea is dumb.
Polish a turd all you want it's still a turd.
Tempe Town Lake and it's turd filled turd colored turpid water is evidence enough for me.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
Rawlins Gilliland Verified
White Rock Lake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
bpferrell Anonymous
A highway in our flood plain is as visionary as White Rock Lake? D-FW Airport? Now I've heard everything. Highways are a 20th century solution. A highway in a flood plain is not only short-sighted but potentially dangerous and way more expensive no matter how "free" the land is.
We should not gift Dallas' park or flood plain land to the NTTA for a revenue generating asset that will encourage more driving.
Invest in mass transit. Invest in great public spaces. Those are the visionary and far-sighted projects. Don't look for every last piece of dirt to put a highway on.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
FoUTASportscaster Anonymous
A couple of facts here. The city of Dallas has 148 miles of freeway, not freeway lanes, but corridor miles. Now the DFW region has 89 miles of regional passenger rail miles. I wonder which option will be convenient to the average person. Also, unlike cities like Plano, Carrollton or Farmers Branch, Dallas has no transit-oriented development guidelines. In fact, there is little widespread dense, multi-use zoning to speak of. It is the low-density, single-use zoning that dominates the Dallas landscape, all of it auto-oriented.
Now, if Dallas were to adopt traditional city building guidelines, which make for memorable places, then a park is a great centerpiece. Great examples are New York's Central Park, Millenium Park in Chicago, or Golden Gate Park in San Fransico.
On the otherhand, every city oin America has built freeways bisecting the inner city and there has been urban decay. Only in america has that happened. It hasn't happened in traditional cities in Europe.
Now, we could take a page from other U.S. cities that are once again establishing themselves as great cities by tearing down their freeways to reunite their walkable neighborhoods with their waterfront. San Fransico and Portland have torn down old freeways. New York and Seattle are mulling teardown options and Boston spent billions to bury theirs. Yet Dallas wants to build another barrier to surrounding neighborhoods and make a '50's mistake by building a freeway in publically owned lands because it is cheaper. I for one want Dallas to succeed and the park plan minus the tollway is a great way to do that. However, the tollway would introduce all the negative aspects of a freeway, but do it inside a supposed world-class park.
1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )
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