Dallas should rename Ross Avenue for Cesar Chavez

Bill Betzen, verified:

What is an immigration posting doing here? Cesar Chavez was against the illegal immigration of laborers who were often used to break up his unionization efforts. He actually worked against the Bracero program that was being used to fight his unionization of farm workers. Chavez used to say that the UFW was born the day the Bracero program was abolished in 1964. Many people have their facts wrong about Cesar Chavez and his work. Go to www.studentmotivation.org/littlemexico/ to see many more details about his life that may help in understanding the renaming of Ross Avenue for this great leader in human rights.

Mike Orren, verified:

I dunno... Goss on Ross had such a nice ring. Who can come up with a credit-challenged used cart lot that rhymes with Chavez?

Does anything rhyme with Chavez?

Blake Ramick, verified:

"less than $10,000 for the city to change street signs. Businesses would have a year to change their addresses on letterhead."

There's more to be changed then just a letterhead. There's business cards, envelopes, websites, exterior signs, interior signs, vinyl wraps, painting, magnets, stationary, online directories, MAPS!!!, etc etc. And then of course there is the post office. It'll take months before that fiasco is cleared up. And it's going to cost a lot more. And all for what reason, so we can honor a person by naming a street after them?

What a waste of time and money. Why don't we focus on stuff that's going to make a difference in moving Dallas forward. Changing a street sign name isn't going to do much good.

My street name

Blake Ramick, verified:

heeheheh, BobS you barely beat me to my post.

Howard Wen, verified:

I totally predicted that this would become a controversy when I first saw the online survey months ago. Chavez's was the only person's name on that list, and the other choices were boring, generic titles related to the Trinity River (yawners like "Waterfront Way," "Trinity View Dr," "Pricey Condo Front Boulevard," and somesuch). But I knew that Chavez was going to win -- one reason being because that his name was the only choice named after a person.

What really surprised me was that Stanley Marcus was not on that list.

Michael Davis, verified:

Correction: there was never a vote on the street name in the meeting mentioned. The committee voted to hold it until August 5th. That's why it's on the coming Trinity River Committee agenda.

Some folks in the Latino community have talked about other streets like Webb Chapel and Singleton.

Others on here raised an interesting question.. Who pays for the business owners' costs?

Ruth Ferguson, verified:

Good evening all,

Michael - what meeeting are you referring to when you reference "meeting mentioned" I think the only reference I made was "However, Ruiz said at each meeting of the Task Force Ross Avenue picked up more adherences." You know when you are rushing for a deadline, you can make mistakes and so I want to correct any error. Thanks!!!

Bob & Blake - when I received this assignment that was my first question. However, it was pointed out to me that the business owners on Industrial Blvd will have the same issues - and there appears to be no major outcry.

According to the meeting minutes Eddie Bernice Johnson Pkwy [longtime congresswoman still serving on behalf of the city] was also considered. http://www.dallascityhall.com/committ...

Jason Rice, verified:

::the business owners on Industrial Blvd will have the same issues

Industrial Blvd know there's a lot of money being thrown at a promotion and development project so there is a reason to join. If I were a little business guy on Ross, I don't think I'd be as enthusiastic about being a bone the city threw to a special interest.

I guess we'll see. I think the small merchants in Dallas are pretty used to being trampled. Otherwise you'd see a thriving downtown instead of flourishing suburban town centers.

Andrew Laska, verified:

So I have a question or two about street name changes in general. Singleton, Ross, and Webb Chapel were all named after significant people or places weren't they?

Are those people or places no longer significant enough to honor?

Cesar Chavez aside -- If someone wants to change any street named after something or someone historic, then that person or group ought to be able to explain why the previous name holder no longer merits the title.

Bill Betzen, verified:

Andrew, you ask "Singleton, Ross, and Webb Chapel were all named after significant people or places weren't they? Are those people or places no longer significant enough to honor?"

The selection of the Ross street was not guided by the name of the street but the location combined with at a minimum of over 12 other considerations that all came together to come to the selection of Ross. I invite you to study one emumeration of the many reasons for this recommendation for a name change down the page at www.studentmotivation.org/littlemexico.

In this entire process one goal is to revive a more detailed memory of the Ross brothers that is more well known by more people in Dallas. Few people currently know them. With a Texas State Historical marker placed at the intersection of Ross and North Market, the most walked intersection on Ross, more people will be exposed to the history of the Ross brothers.

However, in doing the research for this possible marker it was found that originally this intersection was not Ross but was named Carondolet in the original street names given in 1856. Sometime from 1930 to 1938 the name Carondolet disappeared from Dallas street maps and Ross was extended about 5 blocks to replace Carondolet. Should the marker include the Carondolet name as well? That is an issue the city council should address.

These plans should increase significantly the number of Dallas citizens who know who the Ross brothers were. One of the brothers had at least one daughter but she, or her children, have not yet been located. You are asking good questions. Thank you.

Michael Davis, verified:

Hi Ruth - I was just referring to what happened in the Trinity River Committee meeting last time. I can't speak for the chavez task force

Andrew Laska, verified:

Mr Betzen,

I appreciate the input and the background. I took it for granted there was history behind the name. There always is. You didn't answer the question. Let me rephrase.

The question is this: If you have street named for historical person/thing X, and then someone wants to rename it to Y, then why is X no longer deserving of the name?

If (by your information) you mean that the Ross name can be removed and replaced with Cesar Chavez and to compensate the remembrance of Ross one places a historical marker in a corner and that then is sufficient to honor Ross, then that implies a different question. Wouldn't it then be sufficient to simply place a marker or a display in a public area honoring Cesar Chavez rather than changing names of streets and wouldn't that be sufficient? After all, if its good enough to honor Ross then it ought to be good enough to honor Cesar Chavez.

I ask these questions not because I hold a certain position on whether any street name gets changed from something or to any thing else. I ask them because if one follows the logic of criteria about what counts as worthy of a street name then they are simply questions which naturally flow out.

Scott Doyle, verified:

There's already been much bickering and banter on this over <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/jun/03/citizens-vote-new-name-industrial-boulevard-sham/">here</a>, <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/jun/10/dallas-industrial-boulevard-vote-discounts-latinos/">here</a>, and <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/jun/20/gays-join-hispanics-fight-cesar-chavez-boulevard/">here</a> (forgive me if I left anybody out).

The assailed dead horse asks for your sympathy.

And for the record, pic in this story reiterates <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/jun/10/dallas-industrial-boulevard-vote-discounts-latinos/#c27254">my point</a> - <s>Simpson's</s> Austin did it! (building in background is <a href="http://www.strayline.com/Frost/FrostBankTower.html">Frost Bank Tower</a>)

Andrew Laska, verified:

Scott,

If someone sufficiently answered my question, then I'd like to be directed to that answer. If not I'd say the horse is still running across the field.

Scott Doyle, verified:

When they name it Riverfront Boulevard, Trinity Lakes Boulevard, Trinityview Boulevard or Waterfront Boulevard as <a href="http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/0603dnmetindustrial.32a922d.html">announced previously</a>...your question will be moot.

Clearly, it's not a matter of historical relevance. It's a matter of how many streets must be renamed before the City Council beats those dissenting the Trinity Project into submission.

Andrew Laska, verified:

Scott,

Clearly we are discussing a different "it."

I was talking about Ross, and the other streets that were under consideration. The title of the piece is "Dallas should rename Ross Avenue for Cesar Chavez"

Bill Betzen, verified:

Andew, thank you for the clarification. You write: "The question is this: If you have street named for historical person/thing X, and then someone wants to rename it to Y, then why is X no longer deserving of the name?"

Excellent clarification!

There are many streets in Dallas named after people whom you rarely, if ever, read about in history books. The Ross brothers are two such individuals. Their names are rarely, if ever, heard by the normal high school student in Dallas. I doubt there are even 100 people in Dallas who knew of them before this debate on Ross Avenue being renamed started. Oh, people certainly knew somebody with that name existed, but did they did not know who they were, or what they did. Maybe a few people knew their names.

In situations like this the very debate about a potential name change does great honor to the memory of the Ross brothers. Their memory is revived! Sadly, if nothing new happens, their memory will quickly fade. Thirty years from now there will be exactly the situation we had 6 months ago: a street named Ross and nobody knowing anything about the people for whom it was named. Is this description correct? Would not a historical marker on a busy intersection assure that 30 years from now more people will know more details about the Ross brothers than they do now?

Then you asked: "If (by your information) you mean that the Ross name can be removed and replaced with Cesar Chavez and to compensate the remembrance of Ross one places a historical marker in a corner and that then is sufficient to honor Ross, then that implies a different question. Wouldn't it then be sufficient to simply place a marker or a display in a public area honoring Cesar Chavez rather than changing names of streets and wouldn't that be sufficient? After all, if its good enough to honor Ross then it ought to be good enough to honor Cesar Chavez."

Excellent! You are really thinking about this.

Two answers: First - I think there is little doubt that with a permanent historical marker for the Ross brothers on the proposed intersection, more people will know about the Ross brothers than at any time in the last 50 years. Several thousand people a day walk through that intersection. Many are tourists. Many will stop and read the marker and learn about two of the pioneers of Dallas, and maybe the Spanish Governor of the Louisana/West Florida Area if the Council wants that name included. Would you agree with that?

Second: The name Cesar Chavez does not need to be advertised in the same way. His memory is already in the history books. Students hear about him in school. His name is in many other locations. He will be known 30 years from now no matter what we do. Putting his name on a street does honor him more and make even more people aware of this unusually talented leader. But it does something additional that is critically different. It helps the culture he came from (that is the USA! Not Mexico! That is us!) be proud of the leadership the freedoms in our country allow to come forward. Putting his name on this street is much bigger than just a memorial! It is a completely different level of action. It is the type of movement that says Dallas is finally becoming a city with culture. One whose infrastructure reflects more than mere practical considerations. We are growing up and can acknowledge our heroes who took unusual personal risks in their work to change our culture.

I welcome your continued questions. They are good.

Scott Doyle, verified:

Oh, ha, didn't even realize it was a different street we were talking about renaming.

So people are basically butthurt that Industrial won't be Cesar Chavez, so now they're going after another major street? I standby Austin having already beat us to the punch, regardless. Christ, is it that big of a deal?

Hope the City Council steps in and names it one of the water-related streets that Industrial doesn't get changed to. Not worth this kind of time and/or attention. Do something constructive, pls.

Tracy Yost, verified:

First, if Dallas is to become known as a city with culture, we'll have to do more than rename our streets. Second, streets in Dallas that are currently named to honor Dallas pioneers do not need to be renamed to honor a civil rights activist who's primary accomplishments were achieved in CA. If we want to honor Cesar Chavez, we should put a historical marker down at Farmers Market, because that's more appropriate to his work.

Industrial Blvd is a different story - just about anything would be an improvement.

ps. I lived in San Fran in the mid 90s when they wanted to rename Army st. to Cesar Chavez. Army st. is a major street and as one might imagine, the business owners were NOT happy about this. They ended up changing the name anyway, at least for part of the street, but many of the businesses did not change their names. So now you have Army Street Bingo located on Cesar Chavez St.

Andrew Laska, verified:

I was going to say something like Yost's first point but I got beaten to it.

Let me mention two examples of influential people to put it in perspective.

Jack Kilby. He invented the integrated circuit in Dallas and the proliferation of which is quickly becoming as influential over the globe as the printing press and the automobile have been. This invention will be felt long after I am long long gone.

Norman Bourlag. So called father of the Green Revolution that exported modern farming techniques to countries with pre modern farming namely India, Mexico, and Pakistan. This staved off famines for millions and by some accounts he has saved more lives than any other person in human history. He won the Nobel Peace Prize, the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold Medal. Also, last I checked he lives in Dallas.

When I compare these people's influence worldwide (let alone within dallas) AND we compare their connection to Dallas to Cesar Chavez, I find they come out way way ahead. None have streets named after them in Dallas as far as I know. That's not to knock Cesar Chavez but when we open the doors wide open all sorts of names pop up.

Scott Doyle, verified:

I need to stop commenting while inebriated.

Anyways, am I the only person who believes renaming of a street should only be considered for hyper-local reasons? Trinity Project, as much as I despise its existence, is a reasonable cause to consider a name change. Someone who was integral in revamping the neighborhood a street runs through...qualifies for renaming.

Cats who are long gone and may not have ever even traveled down that street - not really worth renaming it for, imo. DO SOMETHING USEFUL WITH YOUR TIME!!!

Jason Rice, verified:

With you 100% Scott.

How do we get these folks interested in redirecting their energies towards slapping this name on the giant NAFTA highway instead?

Ya gotta admire that as a firm possibility -- and it would be a magical irony, no?

Scott Doyle, verified:

Revamp its neighborhood!

Bill Betzen, verified:

Bob, Thanks for the good words. Now I want to build off Scott's quote, "Anyways, am I the only person who believes renaming of a street should only be considered for hyper-local reasons" and reply to the concerns voiced by Andrew about local people who may have actually achieved more by their life's achievements. Jack Kilby is a favorite of mine. I teach 7th grade Computer Applications and teach about him constantly. His invention has changed the world, and that change has just barely began. I tell my students that in 1979 I upgraded by TRS-80 from 16k RAM to 64K Ram at a cost of $500. That's a penny per byte. Now I have a laptop with 2 Gig of RAM. At 1979 prices of one penny per byte that would now cost over $20,000,000 - and I would not have a laptop. Such is the revolution Kilby started.

But back to Scott's quote, "Anyways, am I the only person who believes renaming of a street should only be considered for hyper-local reasons" Here are some reasons the Cesar Chavez name is a local issue:

1) The City Council messed up with the Industrial Avenue public survey or we would not be here. That started the entire movement when 52% of the respondante were ignored and 18% of the respondents are winning. We risk another mega-march, hopefully of less than 500,000 this time because things will not be as peaceful. Did anyone on this list see the 1973 march downtown following the shooting in the head of a handcuffed Hispanic teenager in the back of a DPD police car by a police officer? I was working and drove down Commerce going to a home visit in East Dallas just after the march. I saw the smoking police motorcycle on the Commerce/Harwood intersection and the broken windows. It was not pretty. After that I was in seventh heaven on 4-9-06 to witness the Mega March.

2) The Ross issue could not be more local. Ross was the southern border of Little Mexico. See the map linked from www.studentmotivation.org/littlemexico. The northeast end of Little Mexico is now over 65% Hispanic with 62% of businesses on Ross being Hispanic. Every Sunday the largest gathering of Hispanics in North Texas happens at the Cathedral of Guadalupe.

3) Cesar Chavez is a hero to many, many families, most of whom are Hispanic, and many had him in their homes here in Dallas as he was raising money for his organization efforts in Austin and South Texas and the Texas Panhandle. He had a special devotion to the Virgin of Guadalupe and there are many photos of him with her image that was present in many of his organizing events.

4) He often spoke of the critical role of education. It is very appropriate that DISD offices are on Ross, and DISD board members are supporting this change due to that connection and the fact that 70% of the first grade students in Dallas ISD are Hispanic.

While there are many more people with connections to Dallas who have achieved more, what connections do they have to Ross Avenue?

While over 43% of Dallas citizens are Hispanic, and only 23% are non-hispanic black, and only 29% are non-hispanic white, we do not have a single street I am aware of downtown with a name people would identify as Hispanic. Does anyone know of one?

Bill Betzen, verified:

I forgot to ask. Would anyone on this list want to help us present this in front of the Trinity Committee of the City Council in the morning tomorrow about 9 AM? Details are at the Cesar Chavez Taskforce web site that is linked down the page from www.studentmotivation.org/littlemexico. With good public support in the morning this case should go on to the city council for final approval. Hopefully what should be a simple process will not get blown up to something less than positive for the City of Dallas. Logic must prevail. I pray it does.

Scott Doyle, verified:

So, he was a hispanic leader somewhere else...therefore anywhere a concentration of hispanic peeps springs up he should be commemorated by changing a street name?

Ross trumps Chavez on this one, imo. Especially since the bros were local to Dallas. Aside from all that, Chavez already has a major street in Austin...where it was simply his influence from afar that motivated local peeps to start a movement of their own (not seeing any interwebs text of him stepping foot in Texas).

Irony in all of this is that a gentleman named Fred Ross created the Community Service Organization (CSO) where Chavez learned his organizational ways (<a href="http://www.pbs.org/itvs/fightfields/cesarchavez1.html">clicky hiyah</a>). Hence, the street is aptly named and it'd be much more fitting to commemorate Chavez in another light (e.g. a statue). One came before another back then, why not now?

Seriously, there must be something better y'all can do with your time. I sincerely hope a city council<s>man</s> person sees this before tomorrow morning, btw.

Tracy Yost, verified:

(as stated before, I'm for keeping Ross and honoring Mr. Chavez in some more appropriate way). Doyle has a good point tho - on statues!! I have had the good fortune to visit many cities "of culture" - CONUS and other. One thing we are sorely lacking in (compared to other "cities of culture") is statues. I'm just sayin'.....

Robert Kelly, verified:

I live on Ross, who is going to pay to change my stationary?

Bill Betzen, verified:

plsii asks: "how can you name a street at this point after chavez and it be sincere..."

plsii, for a start you can list a number of reasons for the change, and research the implications of the change, and find a way for more people to know about the positive contributions of the Ross brothers than at any time in the past 100 years in the process and from this date forward. I hope you have read my posts above addressing those issues. If you have not, and you refuse to reply to the issues that have been enumerated for the benefit of renaming Ross Avenue in honor of Cesar Chavez, how can we believe your opposition is sincere?

Scott Doyle, verified:

And your thoughts on keeping Ross Ave the way it is since Freddy taught Caesar his trade?

Rick Yost, verified:

Doyle- wasn't dissing you dude. Just doing my thang. Hell, you are our comic-relief on Pegasus News.

Scott Doyle, verified:

I'm honestly confused, Rick. Where's the potential diss?

Bill Betzen, verified:

Doyle, I agree with you. It is very ironic that the Industrial Areas Foundation staff who trained Cesar Chavez in community organization and how to organize groups happened to be named Fred Ross. That is certainly interesting. I do not think it is much beyond that, but it is a hit many of us got as we googled "Cesar Chavez" and Ross.

Andrew, I agree fully with you about the 1973 riots in Dallas. Such a threat would NEVER be endorsed by anyone who truly supports Cesar Chavez. That is in no way consistent with Mr. Chavez' philosophy of non-violence.

Regarding Little Mexico, in the 1920's there were hundreds of stately homes all over the City of Dallas. Ross Avenue was not that unique. However, Little Mexico was. It was the largest community of Hispanic people in the city and, as I understand it, the ONLY place they could go to school with St. Anns school there. That is significantly more important and worthy of historical mention that the mansions on Ross Avenue. However, in US culture in Dallas in 2008, what gets the most attention? The ghetto area with thousands of poor? or the mansion with a hand full of residents?

How well do you know the history of Cesar Chavez and the importance of the Lady of Quadalupe in his work? The significance of his name being on the street that is the address for the Cathedral of Guadalupe is immensely powerful!

Could you please elaborate on what you meant when you wrote: "thanks for the race baiting regarding a hispanic named downtown street." I want to be certain I understand what you are saying.

Scott Doyle, verified:

Britain &amp; France got their hands dirty in Mexican history, too...not to mention those sly conquistadors. Where's the love for those cats?

Better yet, why don't we just renovate Dallas to mirror Mexico City? We could totally paint all the gringos brown, dye their hair, and name them after every person who might have been remotely related to Chavez ancestry or descendants.

Dallas Spohn, verified:

Joey, those are not reasons, those are conditions. Besides it wasn't even Ross ave they wanted to change anyway. It was Industrial Blvd. So why are you lying about it being because the DISD is off of Ross? Last, who really cares about how many kindergarten children are Hispanic. This is about Dallas and it's people (businesses). Not just the Hispanics. Let me ask you this, If Texas was opened to Indians (from India) and the influx of people made next years kindergarten class mostly Indian. By your reasoning we should change Caesar Chaves Ave. to Gandhi Ave? The Hispanics are welcome here. We have many names that are Hispanic in nature and we celebrate a lot of your holidays. Heck I could be wrong but isn’t Texas a Spanish word?

Scott Doyle, verified:

For the record, I wouldn't mind a namesake crusade for a local hispanic. That makes sense.

Insisting we drop everything and rename our streets after people who probably never even stepped foot in Dallas does not. If that's your game, I demand we rename 75 after <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dunlap">John Dunlap</a>.

Dallas_Spohn, quite right. Per <a href="http://www.texasalmanac.com/facts/">our online almanac</a>, *Texas, or Tejas, was the Spanish pronunciation of a Caddo Indian word meaning "friends" or "allies."*

Susan Thornton, verified:

My suggestion still stands to rename Chevez Ave. in Oak Cliff to Chavez. It's only a couple blocks long, but I think that's plenty.

Jason Rice, verified:

Joey - man, I live on the crappiest named street in the metroplex - seriously - and I moved here anyway. If the name of the street was going to persuade anyone of anything, then the builders of Guadalupe should have been sensitive to that.

Or maybe they just wanted to integrate into an already thriving community.

Rick Yost, verified:

I've said it before and I'll say it again... you can't customize every part of life to your liking- get over it! Our technological society is full of options, choices, pull-down menus, preferences, double-clicked selections, and alternative default settings. This is apparently bleeding over into real life from the matrix to where we feel we can just wave our hand and all things conform to our chosen format.

By changing any street name- a street name that at one time someone thought was a good name, we are ignoring our city's history. We are apparently ashamed of our city's history.

Just like the guy, who after hearing local election results goes out and puts the winner's bumper sticker on his car so folks will think he was behind the winner all along...
we want to change a major street name so it will sound like it fits its surroundings- giving the first time visitor the impression that it was meant to be.
What a load of wasted tortillas.

I'm reminded of Monty Python's 'Castle Anthrax'.

Bill Betzen, verified:

It appears the Cesar Chavez Task Force is the only group paying attention to, and respecting, all of Dallas History.

Rick Yost writes: "By changing any street name- a street name that at one time someone thought was a good name, we are ignoring our city's history. We are apparently ashamed of our city's history."

Rick, if even one tenth of one percent of the people in Dallas knew the history of the Ross Brothers I would consider the possiblity you may have a point. Sadly, that is simply not the case. Ross Avenue is a "generic street name" if there ever was one.

When you ask who Ross Avenue is named for, the most common answer of those who know, or who have lived, much of our cities history, is that they think Ross Avenue was named after the early Texas Governor "Sol" Ross. Almost nobody knew the history of Ross Avenue prior to the recent work of the Cesar Chavez Task Force who brought up this issue, and they have offered to pay for a historical marker at the main entry to the West End to help remedy this lack of awareness of the Ross Brothers in Dallas history. The Ross Brothers should be known! A four letter street name alone does not do that! We may want to consider a second historical marker on the eastern end of Ross Avenue, that will remain named as Ross Avenue, southeast of Greenville!

All of Dallas history must be known. Do you want to leave out the thousands who lived for generations in Little Mexico? The southern border of Little Mexico, Ross Avenue, can be now renamed Cesar Chavez to acknowledge some of this wonderful Hispanic history that helped build our city.

Do you not want the details of the lives of the Ross Brothers to be known?

Are you selective in the history you want to ignore?

Mike Orren, verified:

All of Dallas history must be known. Do you want to leave out the thousands who lived for generations in Little Mexico? The southern border of Little Mexico, Ross Avenue, can be now renamed Cesar Chavez to acknowledge some of this wonderful Hispanic history that helped build our city.

All good. I'll buy it. But no one has yet convinced me of Cesar Chavez' relationship to Dallas, or Texas.

Let's name the street for a local Hispanic pioneer:

Lupe Valdez Lane?

Monica Greene Street?

Adelfa Callejo Avenue?

Adelaida Cuellar Court?

Domingo Garcia Drive?

Rebecca Aguilar Avenue?

Martinez Motorway (honoring the entire Martinez restaurant family)?

Melinda Balli Boulevard?

Angel Reyes Road?

Gloria Campos Court?

Lee Trevino Turnpike?

Pudge Rodriguez Road?

Rafael Palmeiro Place?

Yeah, my tongue is slightly in cheek, but all have a real local connection, unlike Chavez. If we want to honor the contribution of Hispanics in Dallas, I think you'll find a lot of people lining up. But with as thin a connection as Chavez has here, this looks like rallying behind a political agenda rather than a culture, Senor Betzen.

Rick Yost, verified:

Bill Betzen- Just the fact that there is a Cesar Chavez Task Force makes me think you need a life. With all the serious problems that the Hispanic community faces, it's great that you use a task force to change a freakin' street name. Good work Bill. You go boy!

And the "History" I'm talking about is the history that's already done. You know...like...history! The streets that have been named, should stay as they are.
If you want to get a newly constructed street named after CC, that's fine.

And I don't know squat about the Ross Brothers, but I've been walking and driving up and down Ross since I was seven years old. That's almost 45 years.
Now, because you don't feel you get enough respect from the world, you want to change the name to something that will make you feel special. You seem self-image challenged to me.

As a Texan, the Hispanic community has been a part of my entire life. I eat your food, I drink your tequila, I listen to and even play your music, I live and work among you and have Hispanic friends and relationships. My personal ancestral heritage includes the Irish and the American Indian. You don't see me on a crusade to change Elm street to Sequoia Drive or McMahon Street do you?

I suppose if you folks bitch and whine enough, you'll be given what you want.
This is such a great way to be celebrated as a race Bill. My sombrero's off to ya!

Bill Betzen, verified:

Mike,

While the people you list are leaders, the differences between the status of Cesar Chavez and the others you listed are an indication you do not know much about Cesar Chavez. His name is in most recent U.S. history books.

He was last in Dallas in 1991. Many in Dallas walked with him in Austin and the Valley. He has a strong presence in the Hispanic community. It is his name they selected! He also has received major honors from the US Government, the Medal of Freedom, as well as honors from the Catholic Church, the Pacem in Terris (Peace on Earth) Award. Go to Amazon.com and you will find him mentioned in over 4,000 publications, several hundred of which are about him or his writings.

What have you read about Cesar Chavez? How many that you listed have more than one or two books written about their lives and their work?

As with any powerful icon, too many in the Hispanic community, and the general Dallas community, do not know about him. He is a mentor the large majority of students in Dallas ISD can identify with. Such mentors are needed who value education.

Jason Rice, verified:

And the only way possible in this whole wide universe to truly honor someone is to rename a street from something distinctly local to something distinctly race/heritage resonant.

Rosa Parks

'kay.

Bill Betzen, verified:

Cesar Chavez does not need any honor from Dallas. Dallas needs Cesar Chavez.

Dallas needs the example the name of Cesar Chavez can repeatedly remind our city and our children of as they see the street name. The Cesar Chavez name placed on Ross Avenue southwest of Greenville will say something very positive about Dallas, and the example we want our children exposed to.

Study the life of Cesar Chavez and you will understand.

To have the Dallas ISD Administrative offices on Cesar Chavez Avenue will be a positive statement for all students.

Mike Orren, verified:

Bill, you miss my point. I've read plenty about Cesar Chavez -- including the bio on your site:

http://www.cesarchaveztaskforce.com/m...

If you can find the word "Dallas" in there even once as of 10:17 Central time, I'll rename this site Cesar Chavez News.

My point, with which you are free to disagree, is that there is no good reason to pick Chavez for a street name, especially when there are local folks that have impacted our community. Even if they weren't world-renowned, recognized leaders -- at least they are ours.

None that is, other than a botched survey by our City Council, a group that was unprepared for ballot box stuffing and therefore seems willing to backpedal to quiet a vocal, but small group.

I really don't care beans for whom the street is named -- But I tire of hearing that Chavez is the only option. Why was this not a crusade before the City needed a name for a patch of road near the Trinity?

A visit in 1991 does not a local hero make. But hey, if we're going just for merit, let's name our streets exclusively after Great Men (and Women) who have nothing to do with our cities.

I really dig Warren Zevon, Ted Turner, Ghandi, Jesus and Mark Twain. And I'm sure they all have impacted Dallasites. Doesn't make 'em presumptive names for thoroughfares.

Rick Yost, verified:

Cesar Chavez News. You've got balls Mike.

Collin Gouldin, verified:

come on bill,... PLEASE pull though!!! :-)

Jason Rice, verified:

Cheers to THE man.

Bill Betzen, verified:

Mike, you write as if Cesar Chavez is one of the "Great Men (and Women) who have nothing to do with our cities."

As you meet and talk with more and more of the Hispanic citizens in Dallas you will find that many of them have connections with farm work and the work of Cesar Chavez to improve those working conditions. Migrant farm work is a relatively common experience among the ancestors of many current Dallas citizens. Many also walked in South Texas with Cesar Chavez when he worked to improve working conditions in Texas.

Mike Orren, verified:

"We want to be recognized, yes, but not with a glowing epitaph on our tombstone..." - Cesar Chavez

Bill Betzen, verified:

And what about the Mega-March that gathered and marched down Ross Avenue on 4-9-06? Was that not a perfect example of the peaceful principles Cesar Chavez urged us to use for a demonstration?

When was the last time a half-million gathered in one place in Texas, or elsewhere in the southwest, to demonstrate for a cause, and there was only one arrest?

Mike Orren, verified:

Oh, was Cesar Chavez there? Did he organize the march? Then never mind...

http://tinyurl.com/5u3fsd

Look, Bill, I really have no problem with your cause. It doesn't matter to me whom any street is named for, and I'll happily drink a toast to the Cesar Chavez Expressway.

It's faulty logic that offends me -- If the Chavez road supporters could just admit that they should get their way because they have the Council at a PR disadvantage -- but not because of any <s>Cesar</s>God-given imperative, I'll cease to care.

Rick Yost, verified:

Now there ya go! Central Expressway- named after Archibald Central, of the Balch Springs' Centrals. I don't remember what he did, or why he did it, but he was a great man.
And his great name on this main Dallas artery does exactly what it's supposed to do- reference a main artery in Dallas- nothing more.

Jason Rice, verified:

But I think we all can agree that "Warren Zevon" is a perfect alternative. Heck, I wanna get my street changed to Warren Zevon!

Rick Yost, verified:

Send lawyers, guns, and money.

Jason Rice, verified:

Precisely.

James Scott, verified:

So while we're on the subject of street name changes - did anyone see the sign up at Greenville &amp; Yale proposing to change Yale to "SMU Blvd"?

SAVE YALE!!!

But really, save Ross too. I don't remember seeing C. Chavez in the Old Red Museum of DALLAS HISTORY (which is an awesome tribute to Dallas history, the city council must have had nothing to do with it) - but maybe I just missed it.

Jason Rice, verified:

Joey, your history is simply more important than mine. I understand.

Scott Doyle, verified:

IMO, you're only hurting Chavez with all of this. The guy fought for things that actually mattered in people's day to day lives. The <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/jun/17/garland-host-public-hearing-over-cell-phones-schoo/">cell phone bans</a> look like the most important thing we've done in human history compared to this nonsense.

Your reasoning for the renaming is reaching, at best. DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE.

Jason Rice, verified:

Can we ban cell phones on Ross if it's renamed CC?

Dallas Spohn, verified:

Joey77, I read that bit of info before. wait, it was a post by you at the top of the page!

Jason Rice, verified:

It's that important that it bears repeating. It's here too if you missed it.

Dallas Spohn, verified:

So technically it’s just spam?

Jason Rice, verified:

But politically correct spam.

Scott Doyle, verified:

He is honored. Through the schools mentioned above.

Keep in mind half the council said before the fact they were going to disregard the results of the poll...soooo, they basically spat in everybody's face from the get - not just hispanics afterwards.

Jason Rice, verified:

Um, Joey.

::Our Nation LEADER

You do know a lot of us consider that a tad affronting. If you have a nation separate from mine, but live in the same locale, civil discourse is unlikely and could be considered traitorous.

You might revise the syntax and reconsider your purpose with that repeated euphemism.

Dallas Spohn, verified:

Joey77 a poll is just a poll. it has no legal standing what so ever. It's like asking you if you wanted tex-mex or Italian for lunch. Look, the word “poll” in the dictionary explains it as this. 1. a sampling or collection of opinions on a subject, taken from either a selected or a random group of persons, as for the purpose of analysis. Now please quit repeating yourself with the same useless referrals of polling. This is America, we poll on weather you are hot or not. All the polls did was wake up the citizens of Dallas to fight such an absurd choice in names. Other than that we have better things to do than get our friends together and vote in a poll.

Bill Betzen, verified:

I have read through these 87 posts above several times. The only postings found that speak of something positive for our school children are those pushing the Cesar Chavez name change.

Did I miss something or do the so called "Save ROSS" people have nothing positive to say about what is happening - they only want to stop the name change?

Is that the approach to life that has gotten Dallas this far?

Bill Betzen, verified:

I already have a hobby. It is dropout prevention. Google the two words: dropout &amp; cure. The first hit is the web site I have created over the past 3 years. I can now point to 25% more 9th graders making it to the 10th grade in two Dallas inner city high schools. What has your hobby achieved?

A connection to the past and to the future are major pieces of any long lasting solution to our cities dropout crisis. Mentors, both dead and alive, play a role in the total dropout prevention issue. Cesar Chavez is a significant mentor figure for children who share cultural heritage with him.

.... and what benefits for the children of our city are you achieving with your hobby? Are you working so that more of them can know the details of the lives of the Ross Brothers? I'm working on that also. How are you going to improve things from what they were 6 months ago?

Andrew Laska, verified:

Bill,

The most disturbing thing I think is the "us vs them" history that seems to accompany this rather than American history as a whole. Sadly, I find that narrow view coming from people like yourself. For example, I am not an African-American but I consider the greatness of MLK Jr part of my history as an American. I don't consider it "Black history" in the sense that it ought to be apart from American history of white people. It ought not be apart and to think of it that way is stupid. Likewise, Cesar Chavez ought not be thought of as part of "Latino history." It's American history! I think i am in no way alone in thinking like this. As such people will then make value judgments and put it beside all sorts of other things they value as important also.

To think of the history that Ross represents as not representing Latinos or blacks or Czechs or whatever is to play into a politics of separation which I cannot accept. To avoid this (and I think i am in no way alone on this) why not offer a different street to change or some other reasonable alternative that doesn't change the name of Ross? Where is your sense of compromise?

I've heard all your arguments about Ross but why not compromise? What is wrong with that?

Bill Betzen, verified:

Andrew,

The Cesar Chavez Avenue "compromise" did not start on Ross. It started on Industrial, and was "compromised" to Ross. For a multitude of reasons, ones you say you have studied, Ross Avenue has now been accepted by the Hispanic community leaders as even more appropriate than their first choice.

What is the difference between a compromise and an accommodation? I do not think there is much difference.

Have you read the book "The Accommodation: The Politics of Race in an American City"? It is a painful book about Dallas. It may help you understand the reasons why another accommodation should not be made here in Dallas.

Andrew Laska, verified:

Bill,

Don't dodge by saying Ross is a compromise. You know what I am asking. Don't dodge it.

I am asking YOU. So since you didn't answer my question I'll ask it again: I've heard all your arguments about Ross but why not compromise? What is wrong with that?

Bill Betzen, verified:

Andrew, you have never read the book "The Accommodation: The Politics of Race in an American City" have you? It is in the Dallas Library. You may not be able to check it out as too many copies have been "lost," but there are reserved copies you can read in the library.

It is now over 20 years old, but the Dallas history described in the book continues. Requests like yours for another "compromise" are proof. Please read this powerful book so you better understand the history of Dallas. Hopefully you will join us to help Dallas continue to change to be a more inclusive and truly international city. Much more work is needed.

Bill Betzen, verified:

I just checked and there are 5 used copies of "The Accommodation: The Politics of Race in an American City" available on Amazon.com for $40 and up. Only a racist would regret investing the time reading this book. I hope you find it well worth your time.

While there may be limited room for accommodations on some issues, on the Ross Avenue issue that limit has been reached. That is my opinion, and appears to be the strong opinion of many others who have worked for many months on various proposals for honoring the Cesar Chavez name with a street in Dallas.

Jason Rice, verified:

Clay, this is the same argument that has ensnarled Portland for years. It could have been a park, like in Sacramento where he did most of his officing, so it was an easy sell, or libraries, schools and business plazas like in his home state of Arizona - all easy sells as they actually knew him, but the Latino politicians found that a Portland standoff over a street name made for much more contention and far better national coverage.

Nobody likes having their heritage erased and replaced, but it can sound so innocuous in a race baiting contest and gets such great soundbite coverage at the national level.

I do like the sudden "think of the children" angle. Can we get a puppy in that shot?

Jason Rice, verified:

DC - brilliant. We can include classes for all the other stuff we ARE famous for. We can have a class in Table Dancing and Conspicuous Consumption

Hey - DC, you're on to something. A name is everything... obviously, right?

Bill Betzen, verified:

Clay213 Anonymous asks "Can you name even ONE instance, example, or study that shows a connection between changing the name of a street.. and reducing dropouts? I'm betting you can't."

Clay213, somethings are only proven to people willing to see the truth. If cigarettes do not cause cancer for you, if global warming is not increased by pollution, the same questions can be asked about those issues.

Look at the dropout rates for each ethnic group in Dallas ISD. Look at the ethnic groups reflected in street signs. The high dropout rates are among ethnic groups with both a long history in Dallas and a history of being descriminated against. Therefore it is a history of not having the names of their community leaders reflected on street signs in proportion to their number in the population.

The issue is publicly honored mentors whose names are often reflected on street signs. Street signs do nothing. The memories of the mentors they bring into public consciousness are what support positive change. If you only see names you cannot easily identify with, the potential for you to identify these mentors as people whose example you want to follow is minimized. You may even feel as if you are on the outside and not accepted, maybe even angry, not positive.

Google mentors and "dropout prevention" and you will find more than enough research to prove my points, unless you want to continue to believe "cigaretts do not cause cancer."

The freedom of our great country allows you to have any opinion you want to say you believe.

Street names only reflect a much bigger issue in Dallas, one that is slowly improving, but only very slowly. It is these other changes happening that will slowly bring about some street name changes, not the reverse. Changing street names alone does NOTHING! Other social changes that have already happened in Dallas, and will continue, demand that the southwest portion of Ross Avenue from Greenville Avenue be change to Cesar Chavez Ave. A more complete history of Dallas must be reflected, not only the "Anglo Non-Hispanic" history. In the process all history must be reflected and brought more and more into public consciousness. We have a very positive history behind us. We owe much to those who have gone before us. We should not forget.

If you do not think that history is worth the possible reprinting of your stationary, then you and I have different value systems.

Bill Betzen, verified:

momzilla writes: "My suggestion is to work in the schools themselves to make them more relevant to these kids lives, to offer them a future and a hope instead of passing a test and giving them a nearly worthless piece of paper which qualifies them to do absolutely nothing."

momzilla, I work in a Dallas middle school and could not agree with you more. Google the two words dropout &amp; cure. The first hit is a web site I have worked on for the past 3 years to achieve exactly what you speak of. The School Archive Project has achieved a 25% reduction in the dropout rate between the 9th and 10th grade in the two high dropout rate high schools, Pinkston and Sunset, that my middle school feeds into. If you seriously support education I think you will like the School Archive Project web site. Also study the spreadsheets and bar charts at www.studentmotivation.org/dallasisd.htm that show how terrible the dropout crisis is here in Dallas ISD. We have a lot of work to do.

The heart of the School Archive Project is to help our students respect their own history and culture. That is why it works! That is why I support the Cesar Chavez Task Force.

Robert Kelly, verified:

I want to know who the white Cesar Chavez is. My money is on Washington. I may make a place bet on Columbus.

Andrew Laska, verified:

Bill Betzen,

You aren't answering the question.

I am asking YOU (and not a committee and not a book) again (and this would be the third time): I've heard all your arguments about Ross but why not compromise? What is wrong with that?

Bill Betzen, verified:

Andrew, I answered your question. You did not want to hear it. You also did not understand the issues outlined in "The Accommodation".

We have already compromised. You have apparently gotten to this issue late. Look at the history of what we haved been through. There will be no more accommodations, more more compromises.

It is expected that Dallas will admit the need to honor the history of the Ross Brothers, more than a 4 letter street name does, by allowing the Cesar Chavez Task Force to cover costs for a historical marker, after it is approved by the Dallas County Historical Commission, that will be placed on the most walked intersection in the West End. This will honor their memory significantly more than a relatively anonymous street name.

We have compromised Andrew. Industrial is not being named Cesar Chavez Avenue. We have moved on.

Jason Rice, verified:

Clay ::I have trouble understanding how anyone could not see the glaring irony

Yep. Idiotic.

If you want to see the future: Portland's Avenistas

Andrew Laska, verified:

Bill,

No bill you didn't answer. Answering a question I didn't ask doesn't qualify. This will be the fourth time. I don't imagine I'll get answer this time but I'll try.

Why not compromise on your CURRENT stance on Ross avenue? Not some past stance but the current stance.

There is no rule in the universe that says that negotiation and consensus building stops after one or two rounds. What do you have against building consensus and respecting the wishes of a broader segment of the community as opposed to a single segment? I am asking because I am truly befuddled as to why you wouldn't think further consensus building is a win-win situation. Wouldn't it be beneficial to have more people satisfied than less people?

Mike Orren, verified:

Andrew, correct me if I'm putting incorrect words in your mouth, but it seems that y'all aren't hearing each other.

I think what Andrew means by a compromise goes along the lines of what I brought up before: There seems to be consensus on naming a major thoroughfare for a Hispanic hero. I'd even go so far as to say that Ross is firmly on the block. So why not be willing to discuss for whom we name-- and give consideration to a local hero rather than Chavez?

Andrew Laska, verified:

Mike,

I did say I was befuddled. That may be a defect on my part or it may be that someone else's position is befuddling. I am certainly willing to admit when I am ignorant.

I am not trying to hold out a position on Cesar Chavez vs another person. (As an aside however I think there should be some prominent remembrance of Santos Rodriquez but that's a different issue.)

My underlying issue is trying to understand what it is that people actually want. Sometimes it is what they say they want but sometimes it is tangentially related to what they literally ask for.

That is why I asked the questions I did. If having Cesar Chavez on a street name is important then why dig heels in on Ross Avenue? Why won't another street suffice? If having Cesar Chavez on a street name is important SO THAT people now and in the future come to understand that he was important for a certain segment, then why not try to build the greatest level of consensus that is practical? Wouldn't that approach have a greater impact on the stated goal?

If some people do not want to build greater consensus and do not want to work in creating a greater number of people in support of their goal, then I would conclude that they have a different goal than what they say they do.

Again, I am not taking a position on changing Ross. I am trying to get an education on the dynamics. If people resist answering the questions that I think are honest and logical questions, then what am I to think?

Bill Betzen, verified:

One of the many reasons Ross Avenue is selected is that it happens to have on it the Cathedral of Guadalupe, which, according to the http://www.cathedralguadalupe.org/abo... web site, "... serves the largest cathedral congregation in the United States -- as well as the largest Latino parish congregation -- with more than 50,000 registered households."

Every weekend Ross Avenue is the largest gathering place, not only in Dallas/Fort Worth, but apparently in the US, for Hispanic families to come to for worship. Can anyone locate a street with a place of worship where more Hispanic families gather each weekend?

Andrew, this is one of the many reasons the people working on this project are considering no more compromises as to streets to be considered. The symbolism is too powerful: The Cathedral, Little Mexico, the Mega March, the current Hispanic population living on the street, the central location.

For me the fact that a man named Ross helped lead the way for Cesar Chavez to find his life's work is also a sign.

Scott Doyle, verified:

Bill, you sheisty son of a gun. Using <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/aug/01/dallas-should-rename-ross-avenue-cesar-chavez/#c31466">Doyle's argument</a> that Ross is already aptly named as your own? After you agreed that one teaching the other is Ross's right to the namesake, sir!

For shame.

Also, the Cathedral is one of the very few arguments being overly repeated. But honestly, I'd rather not see 25 more comments filled with cockamamie schemes. Please take up hiking, knitting, writing memoirs...SOMETHING to pass all this free time you clearly have.

Andrew Laska, verified:

Bill,

I don't see your earlier response as answering my questions again. All segments of the community live in a greater community together. Why aren't you willing to trade off these positions on Ross to bring greater consensus and thereby greater harmony within the community?

Todd Stein, verified:

After spending an hour our so reading the comments, I am dismayed by Bill's poor attempt at "spinning" an issue. Honestly, I am against the renaming of Ross for many practical, non-emotional reasons. But, after reading Bill's condescending posts(no, Dallas does not "need" Cesar Chavez street renamed) I get the same sick feeling in my stomach as I do from the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jackson who are more interested in dividing a community that bringing people together.

Personally, I am Jewish and like Latinos we have some very sad historical events in the United States. Hearing anti-semetic stories pains me. But guess what - never do I consider the solution is the tactics that Bill has taken.

And yes, the city screwed up. What else is new. Our city council has messed up thing that effect every race, ethnicity, age, sex, etc. But screwing up the Industrial poll does not justify the call to arm (rhetorical, or Bill's threat that Hispanics will possibly take to the streets in a violent manner) if a freaking street name isn't changed.

Guys and girls, this is a street name. They have NEVER been used in the City of Dallas for historical purposes or to teach lessons. They have been used, in Dallas, as a way to honor (typically business leaders as this is a "business man" city) people for local accomplishments. In reality, the "history of the Ross brothers" doesn't justify a statue or whatever in the West End. Their significance isn't that important. That is just another way to "spin" that Bill and his group appear to be using the get their way.

My reasons to keep Ross Avenue the same... (1) Ross Avenue is a "brand name street" with a rich history in Dallas. You would never change Madison Avenue in Chicago, Broadway in New York, etc. I am a marketer by trade and understand the value of the "brand"... which leads to (2) There are MANY businesses with the name "Ross Ave" in their title. The reason they include "Ross Ave" in their title is for the brand. These businesses would either (a) need to change their name (b) lose the relevance in their name. For example, the newly built "Ross Avenue Brownstones", "Ross Avenue Baptist Church", "Ross Avenue Wedding Chappel", etc.
(3) There is a major high rise in downtown named "2100 Ross". Once again - name such because of the "Brand" of Ross Avenue (4) There are multiple businesses on Ross that would have an unnecessary business cost placed on them during semi-tough economic times (collateral, business cards, etc) (5) Ross Avenue is going through a major clean up, with run down businesses and used cars lots being torn down for condos/townhomes. And yes, one of the allures of this location and revitalization is the "brand name" of Ross Avenue (6) There is no reason to rename a street that has already been named in honor of someone. The Ross Brother was land owners (who owned most of the land Ross Avenue sits)... nothing important in the grand scheme of things. But renaming streets already named for people sets an unneccesaryy precedent. Forbid if 20 years from now someone tries to rename "Ceser Chavez" for a different person - sadly, this analogy would be the same thing. What if the church relocates and all of a sudden the DISD demographics turn. (7) There are 100's of other streets in the DFW area - both old and newly paved that do not have the history and importance of Ross Avenue for ALL citizens of Dallas

With that - I am 100% in favor of honoring Ceser Chavez in a very prominent way at the Dallas Farmers Market. I think it will have a more significant PR benefit for the Latinos, represent his historical significance in a very relevant manner... and, just as important provide a very significant PR boost to the Farmers Market as it tries to improve itself for all Dallasites. To me, this is a win-win for all.

Bill - regardless of your thoughts on Ross, what are your feelings (your personal feelings, not LULAC spin or quoting someone else) on a significant honoring of Cesar Chavez at the Farmers Market???

Bill Betzen, verified:

Todd, do you need to accuse me of statements I never made? What manipulation is happening here?

Some of the postings in this blog may indicate the need to discuss some of the most priceless lessons Cesar Chavez taught. Look at the link:

http://www.tolerance.org/teach/resour...

We have a lot to learn. Cesar Chavez can be a priceless resource, unless we want to revert to some of the social attitudes publically accepted before 1960. The very process of considering a street name is allowing these issues to be made public. Just look at the blogs! Google blogs for Cesar Chavez Ave in Dallas. It is an eye opener for what still exists in Dallas in the area of what some call "tolerance."

Dallas Spohn, verified:

Ha, Ha, a street name!

Todd Stein, verified:

Ok Bill - I did not ever mention manipulation - but I did mention SPIN. And thank you for showcasing my point so specifically. My post mentioned (

a) your desire to spin everything b) that my family suffered through prejudice being Jewish c) very tactical, non-emotional reasons to keep Ross Avenue name the same d) empathy that the City of Dallas screwed up - but not using it as an excuse to make a non-necessary change e) a solution, that has the opportunity to be a "win-win" for all parties f) a SPECFIC request for you to comment on the solution

And what do you do??? Subtly call me intollerant.

And this Mr Betzen is why I accuse you to "spin", not answer questions and most importantly do everything possible to make this an "us vs. them" race issue.

So - once again Bill - please answer this specific question that you ignored from my original post: "regardless of your thoughts on Ross, what are your feelings (your personal feelings, not LULAC spin or quoting someone else) on a significant honoring of Cesar Chavez at the Farmers Market???"

Specifically (1) What do you think about my (and others) thought that recognizing CC in the Farmers Market is a better honor than a simple street name? And yes, a win-win for all parties (2)

Bill Betzen, verified:

Todd, you ask "regardless of your thoughts on Ross, what are your feelings (your personal feelings, not LULAC spin or quoting someone else) on a significant honoring of Cesar Chavez at the Farmers Market???"

My answer is that I consider such a suggestion to be an insult to the many leaders of this very well planned and serious effort to honor the example of Cesar Chavez by renaming Ross Avenue, an infinitely more meaningful, visible, and powerful location, in his honor.

You may want to go to www.CesarChavezTaskForce.com and look at the page for the list of some of the businesses and public leaders who support the Cesar Chavez Avenue naming effort for Ross Avenue. It is a very impressive list, significantly more impressive, with everyone actually identified, than the only list I could locate on the saveross.com web site which includes the following: soozy@saveross.com, ken@saveross.com, ellen@saveross.com, susan@saveross.com, todd@saveross.com

The first step in working to actually win this effort may be to identify yourselves. We aren't hiding. Why are you? I presume you are todd@saveross.com, correct?

Todd Stein, verified:

Bill - no, that is not me associated with Save Ross.

And to say I am "hiding" or any of these people are hiding is more of your constant "spin" and attempt to paint anyone who doesn't agree with you as a racist.

No, those people aren't "hiding" as you call it. They have been very vocal in the recent few weeks on their identity and place of work. In fact, I would take a wild guess that you heard them on the 570AM radio interview a couple weeks ago. But, once again your "spin" is very transparent and anyone with 1/2 a brain gets what you are doing. You might be able to fool the uneducated with your rhetoric, but you are going to cause eyes to roll on the average person who reads a online publication like Pegasus

And to call out their website is just silly (and I use that term purposefully). They are a small group of concern citizen who put this group together in a very short time in response to your "well planned" effort.

I am personally offended - and assume most others on here are too - with you rhetoric that assumes we're are stupid (if that is not your attempt - I suggest you show your posts to an unbiased source not associated with this issue and let him/her read them).

I am also offended that you have subtly refered to me as intolerant and a coward.

First - to call me intolerant of various ethnicities is very offensive. A few items on my resume - I am part of a minority group (Jewish), my stepmom is 2nd generation Hispanic, I have spent many evening in El Paso with her 1st generation family, in college I was a founder of a group to bring diversity to the Greek system, I work very closely with a couple prominent national hispanic and african american ad agencies, and I am a mentor to a young child via Big Brother Big Sisters.

And second, no... I won't be hiding when I attend the City Council meeting regarding this subject.

What I still don't understand is your arguement against The Farmer's Market. To say that renaming The Farmer's Market in honor of Cesar Chavez would be an "insult" does nothing but prove that you are more interested in "winning" than doing something that has a positive effect for ALL DALLASITES.

What I don't get - a street name is such a minor, minor honor in this city. Think of all the people in this town with streets named after them that nobody cares about their history (Webbs Chappel, Woodall Rogers, Stemmons, etc, etc, etc). They had a street named after them as a shoutout that only close friends and family care about. I always assumed that a street name was "2nd Tier" on the scale of honoring someone.

And since it has always been a "minor honor" in this city - why put anyone out financially (especially the people who have Ross in their business name)

Naming either Farmers Market - or a plaza in the market - or one of the main sheds after Cesar Chavez would not only be very relevant, but more importantly, MORE PROMINENT and TOP OF MIND for people all over the Metroplex.

Honestly, I would love to debate you in public about this issues. Because then you couldn't resort to providing links to various websites and actually have to answer these simple questions while looking in someone's eyes instead of changing the subject with every question.

Bill - seriously, your spin and race baiting come across as a bad politican at best, and a person who aspires to be a divisionist like Al Sharpton at the worst.

FYI - your website only lists 2 businesses by name.

Bill Betzen, verified:

Todd, Since you are not hiding, who are you?

The www.CesarChavezTaskForce.com web site is not mine. I have no input to it's content. It has 12 businesses listed as supporting the cause, and only 2 on Ross are listed by name, with more than 50 others on Ross who have signed on but are not listed according to the web page.

Jason Rice, verified:

In the spirit:

Petition to kill the thread

Todd Stein, verified:

I will one-up your request. How about a link to my Facebook page - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?i... - now you can know my name, my hobbies, where I went to college... heck, you can even look at pictures of me. Plus, I can match you by posting links.

Does that make you happy? Wow - big freakin' deal, huh?

But once again, great job finding one small tidbit in a post full of legitmate facts/opinions to support your desire to spin the issue and paint anyone who doesn't agree with changing a street name to be an intolerant racist :) Honestly, I would love to have a public, one on one debate with you on this issue (not online) - granted nobody would care to hear either of us.

Now I guess you have to find something else to be critical (spin) on - I am not hiding, I have told you my personal history of being tolerant to various groups.

P.S. Not sure where you get 12 businesses - there are distinctly 2 listed under the business section - Chase and The Palm. So, are the other 50 businesses

Todd Stein, verified:

Not shocking with the tactics of such groups. They list The Palm as a supporter on the website that Bill love to link to.

Well, I just received an email from the General Manager of the Palm stating

"I received your email from my company office and here is my response to you. With all do respect to you I don't nor does The Palm Restaurant plan on endorsing anything in support of changing the name of Ross avenue. I was asked my opinion about a potential name change from an individual whom frequents my establishment. I personally would accept and support a street name change, but I would never use The Palm Restaurant to endorse it and I don't plan on getting involved. As a 33 year old black man I do understand their reasoning for it just as with those who "pushed" to have a Martin Luther King or Malcolm X boulevard in a number of major cities. So from that stand point I understand, but ultimately I plan on staying neutral if I'm asked to vote, sign or put something in writing.

I received the same letter you probably did and I didn't approve of having my restaurants name in that letter. Also, we're apart of the West End Association (which it lists) and they didn't approve it either. I just have more pressing matters to deal with than worry about the name of a street."

Obviously, the strong arm tactics of this group are a bit unethical too in claiming support from a well established national steakhouse - when their GM denies that support.

This why such groups and their tactics are so detremential to the betterment of Dallas for ALL CITIZENS.

As I have stated - I am all for honoring CC in various ways (different street, Farmers Market), but when the group providing support uses DISHONEST tactics like this to strongarm the community, they lose my respect.

Todd Stein, verified:

Guess Bill doesn't want to comment on the falsity of the Palm support???

Robert Kelly, verified:

what say we put it to a city vote Julie. What do you think your chances are?

Todd Stein, verified:

Tax Payer Julie

First of all, that original poll was just that - a poll. And poorly executed by the city. There are many reasons that the results are not scientifically valid that a person with a community college stats class could poke holes in it. Especially considering that people outside Dallas reportedly voted and Latino radio stations were telling people to vote for CC.

Secondly, did the Latino council members and Latino community member take into consideration or get the viewpoints of people who actually LIVE in that neighborhood or have offices on Ross (across all ethnicities). The answer is a resounding NO.

In my opinion, Latinos are definitely worthy of a street name or a very relevant way of honoring their leaders. I have ZERO issues with that.

What me - and many other people - have issues with are: (1) Ross is a historic street name in the city of Dallas. There are no reasons to tear down more history of Dallas - especially one of the most famous addresses

(2) The street is currently named in honor of the Ross Brothers. How would you feel if you were one of their family members and the name was changed. What happens if 30 years from now the street is dominated by American Indians residents. Do we change the name again?

(3) There are 100's of businesses on Ross. From small mom and pop businesses to major companies. To ask them to change is asking for an undue financial burden

(4) There are many businesses and buildings with the name "Ross Avenue" in their title (obviously done since the name Ross has a prestigious view in Dallas). What do you tell the owners of the "2100 Ross" high rise? What do you tell people who recently purchased a "Ross Avenue Brownstone"? And the "Ross Avenue Wedding Chapel"?

The good news - all of these issues can be easily overcome with one simple thing. Changing to a new street, park, Farmers Market, etc.

Sadly, it is obvious that LULAC and the CCTF has no desire to work with the citzens of Dallas.

And unfortunatley, they are doing more harm to Cesar Chavez's name. People - like me - who previously would love to work towards a win/win solution are getting more and more frustrated with their strongarm tactics (and in the case of "The Palm" - flat out lying about their support) that desire to find an equitable solution has turned to a win/lose attitude.

FYI - for the street names you mentioned... are you that naive? Street names are not typically named by ethnic groups. They are community efforts to name NEW streets after citizens who had a direct effect in the community. They were not public votes or anything like that.

Robert Kelly - I would love to put it to a public vote. If those voting can only vote once and must be registered voters in the city limits :)

Robert Kelly, verified:

Exactly Todd. And it would probably help get more hispanics registered to vote. A win/win I'd say.

Bill Betzen, verified:

If you were a property owner on Ross Avenue, would you want to get in the middle of this issue and have to invest time with answering to both sides? Most have little opinion about the street name. The next greatest number support the street name. The smallest number are against it. Leave them alone. Look at what they told you!

The name of the street is a very small item compared with the economy we all face. The name Cesar Chavez will be a positive addition to our city. We have many other issue that the name of a street will not cure!

Todd Stein, verified:

Bill - You said "Bill Betzen Verified If you were a property owner on Ross Avenue, would you want to get in the middle of this issue and have to invest time with answering to both sides? Most have little opinion about the street name. The next greatest number support the street name. The smallest number are against it. Leave them alone. Look at what they told you!"

Read what they told me. They told me that they did NOT provide support to renaming Ross Ave. The Cesar Chavez Task Force listed them as a supporter on the website.

The Cesar Chavez Task Force is LYING to the public about the support - and thankfully, The Palm management sent a note to the task force asking them to remove their name.

I am very, very happy that they told me that the TASK FORCE LIED!

Now - regarding your second comment "The name of the street is a very small item compared with the economy we all face. The name Cesar Chavez will be a positive addition to our city. We have many other issue that the name of a street will not cure! "

I agree 100% - there are many more issues. So why is LULAC and CCTF using so much political goodwill on a "very small item". Especially when there are multiple options availble - other than the Historic Ross Avenue - that would unite the community instead of fracture those who want save Dallas History?

If this is a "very small issue", why waste all that capital?

Bill Betzen, verified:

"So why is LULAC and CCTF using so much political goodwill on a "very small item"."

Because it is a symbol, you know, like the flag is a symbol. That is my opinion and I cannot present myself as in any way representing the opinion of the www.CesarChavezTaskForce.com group. Symbols become as important as the power people decide to give them. In this case we are starting with the name of a man who is a very powerful and exemplary American icon, who, like most such leaders, has many people who are threatened by his example. Equality does not come easy.

Todd Stein, verified:

Ok the Bill - if it is symbol (albeit - admittedly by YOU a "small item"), why pick a street that already has so much history in its name. I know the reason listed on the Task Force's website - but to use all that political capital to change something ALREADY historically significant is either stupid or naive.

Tell me why YOUR symbolism goal and YOUR goal to recognize CC can not be accomplished by renaming Farmer's Market in his honor. Take a second to visualize the various was to tell his story at this very relevant spot.

Give me one legitimate reason that the goals you stated can not be accomplished at Farmers Market. (And the city f'ing this up is not a "legitimate reason" to those supporting Ross)

Todd Stein, verified:

On the subject of symbolism Bill - what is your personal opinion on the Cesar Chavez Task Force lying and saying that The Palm was a supporter when the email I received from the General Manager stated that the Palm does not support the renaming, that he did not give them permission to use The Palm's name on the website and letter.

Once again - since you are not involved in that group (as you claim), I would love to know your opinion on their misleading (at best) tactics.

Bill Betzen, verified:

Todd, who wants to remain anonymous, nobody supporting the Cesar Chavez renaming process for Ross Avenue has lied. You know that. Property owners were cought between two forces arguing and did not want to invest time in the battle.

As far as "identity," that web page you sent me to for your identity did not say much. What are you hiding?

Todd Stein, verified:

Ummm - Bill - That page show my name, my place of employeement, pictures of family vacations, links to my wife's facebook page, a list of all my friends around the country, my university, my college fraternity, my age, my high school and even my favorite musicians. But, beyond that I am anonymous. Even though a couple folks sent me friend request based on this thread.

So - 3 questions for you. Just provide nice simple answers

(1) Yes or No - Did the CCTF website have "The Palm" as a supporter of their cause?

(2) Yes or No - do you believe the accuracy of the email I posted from The Palm's general manager saying "I received the same letter you probably did and I didn't approve of having my restaurants name in that letter. Also, we're apart of the West End Association (which it lists) and they didn't approve it either."

(3) Can you tell me the people behind The Cesar Chavez Task Force? You like to talk about the Save Ross folks and me not being public - but on the CCTF website, no contact names are provided. Just a generic gmail address for contact info. It lists the political supports - but glaringly absent of the organizers information. Since transparency is so critical for you - I figure you'd be willing to provide names.

Todd Stein, verified:

Bill - a 4th question (that you didn't answer before - since you'd rather talk about me "hiding" something)

Give me one legitimate reason that the goals you stated can not be accomplished at Farmers Market. (And the city f'ing this up is not a "legitimate reason" to those supporting Ross)

Bill Betzen, verified:

Todd, I count 6 reasons Ross is the street selected under the "Why Ross?" section of the www.CesarChavezTaskForce.com web site. You may select any one of them.

You other notices are well taken and will be forwarded to the web design team. However, without a Facebook account I am unable to find out much about you. Why not fill in the information here at pegasusnews.com? What's to hide?

Todd Stein, verified:

Bill - ok, I will fill out the pegasus profile if that will make you happy. At least it stop you 3rd grade tactic of changing the subject to me "hiding" something (seriously, that tactic does nothing but make folks roll their eyes at you)

Regardless, you did not answer - why can't the goals you stated be accomplished at Farmer's Market.

I understand that there is a Latino history on Ross and Ross is seen as a great choice by one specific ethnic group. But guess what - there is already a history of the name "Ross Avenue" (beyond the Ross Brothers - but in the sense that there is a history in the name "Madison Avenue" in Chicago, or "Broadway" in NYC).

In my opinion: Change a Street Name Result - it is a street name and it will get lost into irrelvancy in 2 years. Except when people are giving directions or complaining about the potholes.

Honoring CC at Farmers Market Result - will be identified in local guides, tourist guides with the opportunity to tell a story. When people look up the Farmers Market online - there is another chance to tell his story and ties to farm workers. Opportunity for a statue in the middle of Farmer's Market and multiple places to tell his story to a widely diverse crowd of Dallas urbanites who visit weekly (my wife and I included)

Back to my question that you did not answer "Why can't the goals that you stated be accomplished by Farmer's Market".

Jason Rice, verified:

Todd, you could place a photostat of your birth certificate and your butt with identifying birth mark online and he'd still dodge and weave like a crack addict. He's never going to come out and say "My political leaders (and supporters) have placed their reputations on the line with a call to arms to bloody the nose of the man and we will do it by humiliation and threats of a race riot."

For the record, it took me 30 seconds to track down this "hiding" Todd. Bill, you're a computer person of at least moderate capabilities right? Talk to Todd's issues or shut up.

Todd Stein, verified:

On that note Bill - I am assuming you know the leaders behind the CCTF. Since the website doesn't mention their names - who are they?

Bill Betzen, verified:

Todd Anonymous asks: "Why can't the goals that you stated be accomplished by Farmer's Market?"

There are many reasons:

1) The Cathedral is on Ross and, after the street name change, the thousands of Hispanic families who gather every weekend will be reminded of the work of Cesar Chavez.

2) This Cathedral on Ross is the largest gathering place for Hispanic families in the US each weeked according to the http://www.cathedralguadalupe.org/ web site.

3) Dallas is sending a message to the world with the selection of a place for the name Cesar Chavez. To place that name in the Farmers Market indicates they want to get it out of the way, relatively hidden within the city. To place the name Cesar Chavez on a major street in the cities cultural district sends the message that Dallas respects what Cesar Chavez achieved as a corner stone for U.S. culture. Dallas respects and wants the world to know they honor multicultural inclusivity only possible here in the US under our freedoms and laws.

4) The history of Little Mexico has been virtually erased from the Dallas landscape. With this obviously Hispanic street name some of that culture is acknowledged, especially since Ross Avenue goes past what used to be the southern border of Little Mexico. The name Cesar Chavez Avenue will help bring attention to the former Little Mexico.

5) The largest civil rights march in the history of the southwest started on Ross Avenue. It happened to be a march of mostly Hispanic families, a half million people, marching for hours peacefully following the peaceful methods Cesar Chavez had tought for decades. They did not march anywhere near the Farmers Market. Sadly, many in Dallas would like the history of this glorious day to be forgotten. Why?

Renaming Ross for the person who is most identified with such peaceful demonstrations is certainly an appropriate reason in itself to rename Ross Avenue. However, as you can see, there are many other even bigger reasons!

6) Education is critical. The symbolism of DISD headquarters being on Cesar Chavez Ave is very important since we are moving toward a district with over 70% Hispanic enrollment. Much work is needed. The more Dallas can place the names of authentic Hispanic heroes of our time before our students the greater the potential students will realize that success is possible! The greater the potential that students will work! That is well known educational practice.

Do you need any more evidence that the Farmers Marked idea is a distraction from the real issues?

Jason Rice, verified:

Todd, to help your research, the address for the task force - coincidentally - is the address for LULAC National ED CTR DBA: LULAC National ED CTR INC

Ditto phone.

The only name that comes up anywhere is Alberto Ruiz - the guy that registered the URL and is quoted as chairman of the task force - who has the same name as Director of Social Justice Initiatives at the office of Domingo Garcia, who in turn may have a namesake that chairs and organizes many LULAC events in town. (Keep in mind, I know of 5 other people in town with MY name, so I must leave some leeway)

Can we just refer to the Task Force as LULAC hence. After all - why hide? Right?

Sure "grassroots" sounds better than "internationally funded" but aren't we just quibbling about history there?

Todd Stein, verified:

Bill -

(1) You are underestimating the relevancy of Farmer's Market in the City of Dallas. Go down there on a Saturday or Sunday morning and you will recognize it as on the few local attractions that blacks, white, latinos, rich, poor, gay, straight visit, shop and - most importantly - get those free samples from the local farmers.

Regarding your arguement as to "why Ross", we will have to agree to disagree. But, I will fight to keep Ross Avenue the same to honor the long standing history of the street name. The street has a history from Latinos, whites, blacks... but MORE IMPORTANTLY - DALLAS. All your reasons are specific to one ethnic group.

The fact that you use the march - albeit peaceful - as a support point is offensive to me. Why? Because that march was in support of rights to ILLEGAL immigrants. I know this is a hot-button issue with solid opinons on both sides - but to use that as a source of your arguement to change Dallas history is going to do nothing but divide.

The ironic part is CESAR CHAVEZ WAS AGAINST ILLEGALS - I'd assume he'd be against that talking point too.

(2) Please answer the following question - and based on your expertise on this subject and those involved - it is assumed you know the answer. What role does LULAC play with the CCTF? Do they fund it? Do both groups share leadership?

Mike Orren, verified:

Nice detective work, Jason. FWIW, joey77 posts from Domingo Garcia's office's internet connection.

Meantime, I've gotten more requests to close this thread than I've ever gotten on any othe. I'm tempted, because I'm tired of it too and I see little progress in the conversation. But, I'm always loathe to stifle free speech that is nominally on topic and I maintain a foolish hope that something new may still come out of the discussion, such as it is.

So, I've provided a poll for your voting pleasure:

<script language="javascript" src="http://www.blogpoll.com/poll/view_Poll.php?type=java&amp;poll_id=156898"></script>

Todd Stein, verified:

Honestly - being new to Pegasus, I didn't even notice the "latest comments". Not wanting to wear out my welcome I am going to put a self imposed ban on myself responding to Bill. I was just getting a kick responding to his nonsense and illogical responses (albeit passionate) - but didn't realize that it had effects beyond this particular comment section.

Sorry bout that folks - The New Guy

Bill Betzen, verified:

Mike, How many requests to close the thread have you gotten. What does it mean if you close it? Do all the postings disappear or are they archived?

Mike Orren, verified:

I've received about a half-dozen emails asking to kill the thread, not counting the requests in the comments. They've all been without opinion on the street naming, but tired of the endless circles in this conversation.

Nothing ever disappears from the site. The comments stay forever, but no more can be posted and people generally move on to other topics. It's only happened three times in the two years we've been around.

I don't know that anyone should be apologizing here, but the main issue in my mind is this:

• Latest comments is a primary way our regulars follow the site and it is clogged.
• Very little in terms of new ideas here since I last posted days ago that the equine graveyard was nigh.
• Because this is an issue that stirs passion in some and frustration in others, it runs a higher likelihood for hate speech, profanitym etc. and therefore requires extra moderation attention -- which is costly, especially when there's been little in terms of new ideas and a lot of circular repetition. We have a responsibility in hosting the conversation here, and can't let this one dominate the whole site...

Also, if you're not a regular on the site, you may not realize that the attempt at humor in the poll is de rigeur around here. No offense is intended, although it does lampoon my fatigue with the discussion.

Lots of other issues to talk about, y'know... And saying so doesn't diminish this one.

Jason Rice, verified:

All bow to Mike.

I beg you -- it is a poison I cannot resist. If I were a heroine addict you'd act with more resolve to save me. Kill the thread.

And the Garcia IP address coup.... you pwn this place.

Curses! UNLIKE the City Council poll, I can only vote once. OMG - that might lead to a fair and representative outcome!?!? Egads.

-- blogpoll - wow what an awesome source! I'm stealin' it!!

Scott Doyle, verified:

I pooped twice today.

Bill Betzen, verified:

Thank you Mike. Well said. There are certainly additional issues in Dallas. I just know how big this one is to so many who are not online. Handled right it will be a very big plus for Dallas, and save tax money, and ultimately make Dallas a much better place to live.

Todd Stein, verified:

"Handled right it will be a very big plus for Dallas, and save tax money, and ultimately make Dallas a much better place to live."

Ok, one new thing we learned. Spending $10K to change street signs will some how save tax payers money over spending $0 to not change signs. Genius!

Todd Stein, verified:

If this thread is going to be closed - please do it after Bill explains the "tax savings".

I am really curious to hear this explaination. It might change my views on city gov't spending. Heck - if changing a street name saves money, I have a long list of street names to change. I am all for saving people tax dollars :)

Bill Betzen, verified:

Todd Anonymous wrote: "If this thread is going to be closed - please do it after Bill explains the "tax savings"."

The 65% of students in Dallas ISD who are Hispanic represent the large majority of the dropouts from Dallas ISD before graduation from high school. It is estimated that only about 37% of 9th grade Hispanic students make it through graduation. For all DISD students that number was only 41% for the class of 2008. (All statistics are found in bar charts and spreadsheets to be found at www.studentmotivation.org. It would be very valuable for anyone to find errors on those pages, especially errors countering these conclusions.)

I helped start a dropout prevention project in 2005 at Quintanilla Middle School that to date has cost taxpayers almost nothing other than envelopes and paper for about 1,600 students who have participated, about 400 each year for the past 4 years. The method of the project is to focus students onto their own futures. This is done by documenting their past, their heroes, their families, their hopes and goals for the future. This is all written in a letter students write to themselves which is then placed into a 350-pound vault bolted to the cement floor in our lobby and under spotlights. This vault is the School Archive. It functions as a time capsule, holding the letters until the class 10-year reunion when the return for the reunion, to pick up their letters, and to speak with then current students about their recommendations for success. They are warned to prepare for questions such as "Would you do anything differently if you were 13 again?" See more details at www.studentmotivation.org as to how this project has apparently been a factor in lowering the 9th to 10th grade dropout rates by an average of 25% at the two high schools our students attend. Something very positive is happening. The only thing both high schools have in common is Quintanilla Students.

One small element in this entire process is the making visible of role models for students to help form their visions of the future, and themselves. Actions such as placing the name of Cesar Chavez as the street name at the church many of my students attend, or the school headquarters where all of them attend school, will help raise the level of self respect among these same students. He is a leader they can much more easily identify with than a four letter street name that has no personal connection for any of them, nor for many other people in Dallas it appears.

To see the name of a leader, one they can much more easily identify with, being honored in public will increase the potential for them to do the extra work needed to finish school. Even if only 1/10th of 1% of the 63% of Hispanic students who drop out of Dallas ISD were to finish school due to such a positive public display of respect for a Hispanic leader, the City will reap a hundred-fold return, increasing annually, on it's meager investment in this street name change.

I think I can safely say I understand dropout issues better than most folks having been a social worker in Dallas for 28 years, investigating child abuse most of that time. I am certain this simple change of a street name, due to the visibility of the location of the street, will lead to much more than a 1/10th of 1% decrease in the Hispanic dropout rate. The Cathedral being the gathering place for a significant part of the Dallas Hispanic population each Sunday is one big reason.

The dropout program I now have in operation is achieving a 25% decrease in the dropout rate, probably even more than that since our Quintanilla Students are being mixed in with students from three other middle schools. If we were able to follow only Quintanilla students it is highly probable that the decrease in the dropout rate would be much more than 25%.

Ultimately we will save a lot more than tax money with this relatively simple change of a street name.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to write this out.

Jason Rice, verified:

KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT!

Scott Doyle, verified:

Thought there was going to be a 3rd. Turned out it was just gas. Carry on.

Bill Betzen, verified:

but Todd Anonymous asked ...

Jason Rice, verified:

Ok, THAT was funny Bill.

I owe you a beer.

Todd Stein, verified:

Ok - I am on board - close this. Lock this.

Bill, buddy Bill (1) your "Todd Anonymous" is freaking annoying. I have actually submitted my contact info to be verified. Your tone does more to make me have no desire to find a win/win solution than anything

(2) Great talking points ?!? For a comedy routine. If you really believe that babble, they I point to MLK and Malcomn X having positive effect on the african american dropout rate

(3) Adios to this thread... I will tell all supporters of the renaming this. Work on a non-Ross solution and you will find tons of support from many, many people of all races. Make this a win or go down fighting - win/loss - "I don't care about business owners and Dallas history" fight and you will not only lose - you will do more to harm the reputation of Latinos in the City of Dallas than help (even though a large number of Latinos don't care or are against this fight)

If y'all decide that Farmer's Market is a good solution, shoot me an email at tstein7240@sbcglobal.net. I will be more than willing to lend my marketing expertise to help you out. I think it is a relevant and "smart" decision for ALL residents of Dallas + helps accomplish all the end goals the Task Force desires. Seriously - I am offering my help - tell those "anonymous" supporters from LULAC to contact me if they desire.

Tracy Yost, verified:

Thank goodness. http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/ar... I personally still think we need a good statue in this town, rather than just picking another street to rename. I wonder if LULAC would pay for it ?

Jason Rice, verified:

Sure they would.... with your money ;o)

Mike Orren, verified:

Not for any kind of nefarious censorship purposes, but to keep the inevitable reflare of discussion on this topic in one place, I'm closing this thread. If you have something to say, go to this story:

http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/...