Scott Doyle Verified

It would be far easier to rename Ross Ave. Cesar Chavez Blvd and choose another street to rename for Ross Ave.

Jesus H. Christ. It'd be easier to let the issue die. Get a hobby.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Matt Anderson Verified

I'm with Scott.

"it wasn’t the first time Ross Ave. had been renamed" -- I think you're wrong there. There was another street that aligned with Ross that was renamed to also be called Ross, but I think Ross has always been Ross. I've got a Dallas street map on my wall that (IIRC) is from 1898, and Ross is clearly there.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Kidd Verified

It comes down to this: The Dallas PowerTinos think the Ghost Of Caesar Chavez will bring them gifts and good luck on Dias De Los Muertos if they name a street after him...

Im not that much of a chicano studies major, but if you read into the finer points of Caesar Chavez, you'll find that he wasnt a big fan of undocumented workers, which is a large population of ross avenue. I just find that seriously ironic.

The right thing would be to honor a youth(Santos Rodriguez) who lost his life and brought about changes and ingnited the Dallas Latin Community.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Hyper-local. Now that's what I'm talkin' about!

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Kidd Verified

From Wikipedia:

On a few occasions, concerns that illegal migrant labor would undermine UFW strike campaigns led to a number of controversial events, which the UFW describes as anti-strikebreaking events, but which have also been interpreted as being anti-immigrant. In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of illegal immigrants as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and U.S. Senator Walter Mondale. In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report illegal aliens who served as strikebreaking replacement workers, as well as those who refused to unionize, to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Doyle- love your comment and agree completely. (I especially like the H.)

Being the self-taught psychoanalyst that I am,it seems to me folks that want to change street names to suit their purpose, wish they could change their own names- as if that would somehow magically make their lives better. "It don't work that way!"

Broadway, Wall St., Hollywood & Vine, these street names weren't chosen so they would turn into the select addresses we know them to be now. They're known because of the businesses and community around them put them on the map (so to speak). Just because you name a street, "Cool"drive, doesn't mean it's going to be seen as cool.

In fact it seems you're ashamed of your past by refusing to live through the history of your city.

The businesses and 'industry' on Industrial Blvd were a big part of what put Dallas on the map. Are we ashamed of that?

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Marisa, Thank you for addressing this most critical issue. We must remember our history! That includes a better remembering of the Ross family. Yes, a street is named after these brothers but who remembers much about them or their families. Three months ago in Dallas I doubt there were even 100 people who could name them or what they did. If the Cesar Chavez name change goes through then a historical marker will be placed at the entry to the West End, currently Ross & North Market, that describes the Ross family and their acheivements. It will be good for us all. Hundreds a day will read more about the Ross family. They will not be lost in an 4-letter street name nobody knows the meaning of, the fate of many true heroes of our culture who are religated to a street name. Fortunately for the Ross brothers this Cesar Chavez renaming process started and their memory can be revived.

Street names should be religated to people who are also in our history books, such as Cesar Chavez. In that manner people will continue to study the reason for the street name. Our own history will be more visible to us.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

I'm being redundant here, but I disagree with the entire premise of changing street names. The street has been named already- live with it.

If you want to remember someone you feel is important- remember them! Put up a statue if you must. But don't force the people who live and work on Ross to pay for changing the street name to whomever you decide is the person of the day.
How long will it be before someone comes along and wants to change the name to something else?
I think for some folks, a LIFE should be sought out and acquired.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jesus Valadez Verified

Stop it with the name changes! Do you people not know how this is going to screw up my TomTom map?! It won't be updated until a whole other year and I don't feel like doing it manually. Grr....

I'm Hispanic and I don't care about a damn street having an Hispanic person's name. Some people just love to bitch for the hell of it.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Kidd Verified

Lr, mainly this whole thing is being ran by the PowerTinos, whos general idea is that everything should revolve around them, not to mention they want to show they have "Chicano Cred" with the rest of the community at large. As im married into a latin family, ive gotten some pretty interesting responses from both the young and older folks. Both seem to agree that the street should'nt be named for Chavez. If we're going to change street names, lets go with a hypernaming scheme and keep it local, as theres plenty of local latinos who deserve respect.

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Mark this day on the calendar. Remember what you were doing this very moment.

chad>> Or at least if there are going to be more articles.. could we please get some new content?

Chad and I are in complete accord. OMG he must be right... (yes, Chad, it scares me too)

1 year, 3 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

the changing of old Ross avenue today,kind of like changing the way we were brought up, then again,things get old and somethings have to be told new, names like ....ROSS Ave or ROSSA ave, dates back to the 1870s, when it was connected with a freedmans town community, and the central railroad which connected to deep elm by strange and ecentric road formations, to later become the 2 hand alley street or boarding house row in the 1930s, while today, how many real or old fashion dallasites can recall when it was what ross used to be like, GOSS on Ross, who sold used cars, or the Penguine bar, all nice neat characters now long gone, so maybe it should become the lettice kings road to the 21st century, while I May move to mexico and change some of their street, to SAM HOUSTON AVE, or L.B.J Road, and then we can call this a good trade....or is my english to broken......change is part of life, to enjoy and recognize, Ross ave is an old name....who can recall what it means today, until then Alexander Troup URBAN HISTORAIN.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

Some more on Ross ave, when it was Goss on Ross, created around 1870 and known as the old White Rock Road, since it was a route to the old mill and named after ...................Col.A.J.Ross who owned a big house on Ross near Feild and Akard today,an old timmer by the name of Edd Cornwall tells it like this in april of 1923, feilds near akard once grew cotton, and in 1870, we cut and pulled out stumps and ditched the road and graded the pasture into a road that ran through string town and then freedmantown to what is now jack Coles place,all the while it was a hot summer when this road work was done and created.....then we called it Ross ave after Col. Ross, who had a brother W.W by the way,.....W.W.Ross Died in 1899 at the age OF 78, while Col Ross died in 1905, all the while they were intresting people and famous in Dallas at the time for all kinds of unsual hobbies and intrest, A.J once entered his little pointer bitch bread dog in an international Dog event in Switzrland around 1901 and won first place,while his daughter Cathrine, went to europe in 1925, and so the Ross,s on Ross Ave had style and meaning..... along time ago...then again, should this old road have a name change...lets find out in the weeks to come now that we know who the Ross and maybe later Goss on such an old road really were and if it matters besides they came from Dallas, until then Alexander M.Troup, urban Historian...

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

One last thing about Ross Ave name change, I rode down there over the weekend and saw the DART rail line and streets now under construction, old blocks of what was once the great homes on ross, were now being removed by the truckloads,to land refill sites as dozers and trucks remove old Dallas Texas earth for new developement considered the ROSS HEIGHTS, which will become the center face for The downtown Arts district,meanhwile I ran across somthing that caught my eye and investigative,thought process.....in 1899 W.W.ROSS was a brother to A.J ROSS, While in the 1899 obituary of W.W Says, came to TEXAS in 1854 then to Dallas in 1867, Ross ave was named in his honor, he was practical man,a gardner and a orchard grower of the finest speicmen in the Southwest....while he will be missed, and a Jacksonian democrat, now doesnt that sound good, for a man who may have had a lot to do with plants and rights... didnt Cesar have the same notion in old California with lettice and peoples rights.........Dallas landmarks are not only buildings, they are also streets and cemeteries where these prominent people have become the history of the City, until then...Alexander Troup, Urban Historian.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Alexander Troup, I like what you have written. Is it possible you can help us create an online history for the Ross Brothers and Ross Avenue? It can then be part of the historical marker that is planned for the West End. If that historical marker could have a link on it to the Dallas Historical Society home page, and a page dedicated to the Ross Brothers and the history of Ross Avenue, then a full history would be available from this day forward to anyone interested. Sadly, as you know, very few people knew the source of the Ross name. We cannot let that happen. I strongly support the change to Cesar Chavez Avenue for many reasons, one of them is the potential to bring back into public awareness the true history of the Ross Brothers that has been lost to public memory.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Put up a statue of Cesar on the corner of Ross and Market. Hell, put up a huge statue of Cesar on the corner of Ross and Pearl right in front of the Cathedral.
Make him a Dallas landmark for folks to have their picture taken in front of, not just some street covered in dirt and oil.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Okay, so if it's not just about the name, then why does the street name have to change? Is naming a street after him the only creative way you folks can come up with to honor him? What about a park, a school, an annual festival or music event, a statue?
I'm just saying there are surely alternatives to changing a street name that would be accepted by all.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

What are they naming the park they're taking so long to 'build' downtown? You couldn't get much more high-profile than right in the middle of downtown.

I'm just saying that shoving this lone, single-minded idea of changing Ross to Cesar Chavez down the throats of Dallas residents might not be the best way to get them to know and appreciate the man. It might only cause irritation and annoyance instead of honor.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Clay - I don't know which I dread more, fighting with you or agreeing with you, but you're 100% on spot.

While "Hey, put up a plaque for Ross" when it's obviously not acceptable for Chavez is by any measure a leap, you hit the nail on the head. "Oh THIS guy is famous enough already that people won't forget him like whatsisname." (so he needs a street, why?)

I for one am dying to see the dichotomy of the tony Museum Tower integrating "a laborers hero" into their ad campaign. That's gotta be worth the price of admission alone.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Andrew Laska Verified

Rick,

FYI: There is a school named after Cesar Chavez in Dallas.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

I like Clay's commercial solution. This year Dallas can celebrate its rich and deep heritage of seasonal farming and organized labor and next year we can shift over to being a whore to bastion of sports footwear innovation as we put the bids out to Nike/Addidas. That way on any given year we can make people feel completely at home be they from Stockholm, Dubai or even Bangalore.

Dallas is nothing if not home to the oldest enterprise.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

I think they should name the Planned Parenthood building after Cesar Chavez.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I'll need an irl AdBlock for such shenanigans.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I'd sooner get lost than watch Dallas whore itself out even more.

lol, love that the URL is still Smirnoff Music Centre. =p

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Fred's BACK! Yay!

Snazzy formatting trick David. No wonder you pay the rent this-a-way.

C'mon Doyle, a girl's gotta make a living, and with morals like this girl's got... well.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Dallas Spohn Verified

Lets name it sandy cheeks ave. <-- would like to know who can reference it? Robert Kelly, you saying the whole topic is an abortion?

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Thanks Andrew- I didn't know that.
So, I guess that's just not enough, huh? Having a school- in Dallas, named after Chavez is just 'so bla·sé', they still feel entitled to a street as well.
Well, bless their hearts.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Thankfully, no!

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

LOL - How about "Political Sense"?

Or "Appeasement Sense"?

Or we might agree "No Sense"

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

name one thing he did in or for dallas specifically joey77. just one. i double dog dare you.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

joey77- No one is arguing that your hero was just that- a hero! That's cool. But why do you feel the best way to honor the dude is to rename a street after him?
I mean, how much has naming Martin Luther King Blvd done for MLK? Or LBJ freeway done for LBJ, or Malcolm X? In a year's time after all the hooplah is over, and life goes on, everyone forgets. It's just a freakin street.

It just amazes me that you folks get so outraged that everyone's not going for the idea. What makes you so entitled?

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

See, Rick, had you been following the nearly identical thread here you'd be a convert like me. Apparently, renaming a street Cesar Chavez will fix the huge dropout problem.

I now believe that it will irradicate teen pregnancy, keep shaving razors sharp indefinitely and reduce global warming. Cars get double gas mileage on streets named Cesar Chavez and flouridated water from fountains on those roads prevent impotence and reverse male-pattern baldness.

More over, it will make all Dallas Latinos proud, happy, prosperous and more integrated - each and every one.

I'm all for it now. Screw the Ross's. What did they ever do for the proud tradition of seasonal migrant farming and organized labor that defines modern Dallas?

Really, man? You're so backwards.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Some of the postings in this blog indicate the need for some of the most priceless lessons Cesar Chavez taught. Look at the link:

http://www.tolerance.org/teach/resour...

We have a lot to learn. Cesar Chavez can be a priceless resource, unless we want to revert to some of the social attitudes publically accepted before 1960.

Robert Kelly, in the area of tolerance you appear to be right. The effect of the teaching of Cesar Chavez may not have been accepted by many people in Dallas yet. Do you know much about the work of Cesar Chavez?

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

I know as much as I do about MLK, Ghandi, and other broadly celebrated rights activists. I know that he was a champion for farm workers which is why I like the idea about naming the farmers market for him. I know he was an education champion, which is why I like the idea of schools and libraries named after him.

"How bout you just accepting the fact that Cesar Chavez was a great man and a true American Hero who did alot for Dallas." - Joey77

I also believe in calling BS when people make stupid statements. I'm still waiting for Joey to put up or, well, you know.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

i also know Chavez has a bowling alley named after him in Amarillo. I'm not sure what that is all about.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Oddly enough they do have a great deal of migrant labor up there in Amarillo, so you might think it appropriate to name a popular hangout after him - nowhere near the teeming throngs of farmworkers we apparently have, but a lot by rural standards.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Mark-Brian Sonna Verified

I don't get it....Ross Avenue is named after the Ross family who contributed greatly in their own way to the formation of Dallas making it the city that it is. Without people like them, and the Akards, and Ervays, etc. Dallas would not be Dallas. These early leaders (business, political, etc.) helped plant the seed that became our city like it or not. Without them Dallas would not have started its evolution to what it is now which means there wouldn't be a desire to do this name change ona street. In a way, Ross' success is what is causing his namesake downfall.

Perhaps 100 years from now Cesar Chavez Ave (if it does have the name change) will fall out of fashion as p[eople forget who he was and a new name will be given to it. Very Orwellian.

I still can't fathom why they don't want to change the name of Live Oak where the Latino Cultural Center, which is supposed to be the pride of the Latino community, to Cesar Chavez. There was no Mr or Mrs Live Oak.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Mark-Brian, because they need to rename Live Oak after Gandhi. As a matter of fact, I think I'm going to put all my energy into that little project. (tee hee) If you can't beat 'em, flank 'em.

The article facetiously suggests Swiss or Main, but I'm thinkin' Live Oak is just perfect for the purpose. It's all about inclusion, right? And Gandhi was definitely a bigger contributor to Dallas history than a particular tree genus.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

You're all missing the point. (my point) Any street you re-name will have a great many businesses and homes on it that will have to spend their own money to change their stationery, and then they'll have to deal with the postal changes.
Was CC all about innocent folks, guilty only of living on the wrong street, suffering his name so he could be remembered? I doubt he'd say yes. That's my point. Don't change any street names. Swiss, Live Oak, Ross, Peak, Corinth, Cadiz, Lawther Dr, Buckner, Glasgow, none of them.

The best idea I've heard yet, is naming the Farmer's Market after him.

And while we're still beating this horse, when did this all come up anyway? Was there a push to name a street after CC before the city council brought up changing Industrial?
I'm really asking.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Robert Kelly, if you really wanted an answer to the question about some of the connections of Cesar Chavez to Dallas you can read one answer in the Dallas Morning News today at http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedconte....

I say this is only one answer. I have heard many answers as I speak with friends who worked in fields, or basic hard labor, that Cesar Chavez showed us how to change. Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Dallas citizens also have parents, grandparents and other ancestors who worked in the fields in conditions that Cesar Chavez worked to make more human.

How many days have you spent in the hot sun working in fields cutting weeds or harvesting crops? 5 days? 20 weeks? 5 years? What were you paid?

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

How about an answer to my question Bill.
I would think you would be the one to know how long this push to rename Ross has been going on.
Was it spurred by the city council?

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

I have only been involved in it since Industrial. I do not know the history before then. As you can see from my www.studentmotivation.org/littlemexico web site, I have a long time devotion to the history of Dallas and specifically Little Mexico. After 41 years in Dallas County, 2 more years than either of the Ross Brothers spent here, I have picked up a mass of facts about the History of Dallas that makes me strongly believe we need to build up our history and quit keeping it hidden, especially the history of that large majority in Dallas who are other than the 29% who are Anglo non-Hispanic. The fact that embracing personal history is a major key in stopping our Dallas dropout crisis is part of the reason I am personally unwilling to discuss alternatives to renaming Ross Avenue. It is the best and only alternative in my opinion. Maybe you can find someone else to talk with about regarding such alternatives.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

So Bill, what say we name a street after everyone who visits Dallas 20 times. We can even have a punch card. With your 20th punch you get a street sign.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

And I agree with the final quote in the article.

"Why are we changing the name of a street that already has a history?"

Why not Live Oak, where the Cultural Center is?

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Rick - fwiw

Whois:              "cesarchaveztaskforce.com"
ICANN Registrar:    GODADDY.COM, INC.
Created:            2008-06-12

Reference to first meeting - Jun 16 - yes concurrent with the Industrial announcement.

Just data, but that looks to have been a busy week.

It is nice to see it was a real live human and not a law firm in San Antonio or some such. To me, that's a smattering of cred.

Robert - I like the idea. We're about two visits from OJ Simpson Circle! Cool!

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Thanks Jason.

Bill Betzen, you and I'll just have to agree to dis-agree. That's okay.
I'm just an ol' white guy/East Dallas/trailer-trash redneck/turned hippie back when it was cool. I don't have a real interesting heritage or regal ancestry to shove in everyone else's face to make me feel better about myself. I have to just take life as it changes in front of me.
Since I don't have such a history, I just don't understand the need for such a thing. But that's okay. I don't have to have an answer for everything. Sometimes I just have to accept that some people need more 'grounding' than I do. I am an individual, and although I love my family, I am not a member of any group- ethnic or otherwise.

In all honesty, no, I didn't know a thing about Cesar Chavez before this all started. So in a way, you're already doing what you strive for- to honor the man. Although, since I was forced to learn of the man, I still don't have a great yearning to learn more, or any great reverence for him or his name. He's just someone else's hero I was forced to learn about.

However,(and I'm about to bow out of this thread- I'm not into filibusters) I hope that things do work out for your cause and your community. I wish that everybody could get all the respect they feel they deserve. I'm just old and so tired of all of society's different racial factions pushing and shoving each other. For someone like myself that has never shoved anyone, it just seems a bit silly.
If you want the world to change,(and I've said this to myself in the mirror many times) you may have to start with yourself.

Adios. Peace

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Rick, I agree: "If you want the world to change,(and I've said this to myself in the mirror many times) you may have to start with yourself." I said the same to myself often.

Amen! Adios, Peace.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Personally, I thought a dead fetus on the fire people's doorstep was comment-worthy.

Two people had something to say.

Meanwhile, half the goddamn metroplex seems to be up in arms about changing some street signs. I was vehemently against these cats making such a huge stink about this at first simply b/c it's too asinine to pass up. But I just don't care anymore. I stand by my nomination for Poop Ave, if there's still a ballot.

Clearly, Cesar Chavez is more important than life itself. Praise Cesar!

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

In the spirit:

Petition to kill the thread

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Mike, have you studied factors that are highly correlated with students dropping out? Lack of a connection to their past and future is probably the most common factor. Lack of goals, self respect, respect for their own culture all conribute. Any positive roll model helps change that, dead or alive.

Unfortuantely most of Dallas agrees with you and thinks of the dropout issue as a "beating a dead horse" issue. They quickly make fun of dropout prevention efforts which are very easy to critique and destroy, but very difficult to build up and make succeed. You certainly represent the majority! Is it any wonder that 60% of Dallas 9th graders are "missing at graduation?"

Study what we are doing at www.studentmotivation.org and then decide if we are beating a dead horse. This Cesar Chavez effort is only a tiny side distraction from the School Archive Project, an effort that only I personally support, but the philosophy fits very well with the entire project. Do you know of another dropout prevention project that can point to a 25% decrease in the dropout rate for $2 per student?

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

I'm out too Bill, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Enjoyed the banter. Hopefully we'll get the chance to chat over a beer sometime. And good luck with the student motivation project. Looks like good work.

1 year, 2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Robert, thanks for the encouragement. I also agree that it is always better to talk over a beer. Hopefully someday.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Nope. I just said it's slightly more credible for an individual to register a domain name than a LULAC lawyer. Don't read more into it than that.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Bill - you said "The fact that embracing personal history is a major key in stopping our Dallas dropout crisis is part of the reason I am personally unwilling to discuss alternatives to renaming Ross Avenue."

I don't get how the two points are mutually exclusive?
- We CAN embrace history and honor Cesar Chavez - It can still be accomplished with an very, very good alternative

Let's say that some conclude that Ross is the best street for the name change. But the fact that many people has very solid, rational, emotional and non-emotional reasons to save Ross Avenue leads me to believe that an alternative is a great solution for ALL Dallasites.

If you want to embrace history - that can easily be done in any of the following ways: - Statue of CC in front of the church - Renaming Farmer's Market in his honor - plus a historical display that can showcase his story to everyone who visits - Renaming a new street that doesn't won't require small businesses to incur unnecessary expenses - Name a park in his honor (once again allowing for proper signage to tell his story)

The win/lose mentality of the CCTF is doing nothing but dividing Latinos from the greater city. And it doesn't have to be that way. There are very easy win/win options that will accomplish your stated goal - and avoid the negative issues associated with distroying the Historic Ross Avenue

If you're going to dig your heals into the ground because the city gov't screwed up - that is just naive and won't do anything to endear yourself to the actual residents of Dallas who'd be willing to help your cause instead of defeat it.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Looking over the comments on this blog some may think of the need for a positive lesson on tolerance. If you go to http://www.tolerance.org/teach/resour... you will find a very positive DVD and lesson plan for the teaching of tolerance to 7th graders. It is free to any teacher or library who wants a copy. It is centered on the life of Cesar Chavez. He had to deal with this type treatment much of his life. It is sad that not much has changed, but we have his example on how to peacefully deal with it toward a positive outcome. This DVD will not be available until the middle of next month.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Obviously - preserving Dallas history = intolerance ?!?

I get it now! Silly me.

I will have to tell that to my Latino step-mom and her family, my Jewish family, my Catholic best friend, small town Southern Baptist wife, Little Brother (via Big Brothers Big Sisters) who lives in poverty, African American co-worker who I just got a new job with my agency, and gay friends who my wife and I had to our house last weekend that I am intolerant. They will obviously hate me now ;)

Honestly, the connection that wanting to preserve history equals intollerance might be the craziest POV of Bill's many.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Todd, Since you claim to be interested in preserving history can you point to the postings you have made explaining how you will prevent Dallas from returning to the level of awareness as to who Ross Avenue is named after that existed 6 months ago? I have asked you that question on other blogs. You have not answered that I can find with a way to keep the history of the Ross Brothers in the public eye. The level of awareness in Dallas 6 months ago proves that a four letter street name does not achieve that goal, especially for persons rarely mentioned otherwise in the media or in history.

The Cesar Chavez Task Force wants to make that history public on a historical marker visibly posted on the main walked intersection for Ross in the West End. That history will be public for the first time in Dallas history.

Since you are so interested in preserving the authentic history of Dallas I am certain you have a plan you have made public that I am simply not aware of, correct? Just share with us where it is posted.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Actually Bill - you can look through my posts and I have not advocated the history of Ross based on the Ross Brothers.

Yes, I do find it very distasteful to rename a street that has already been named in honor of someone else. To me, this sets an awful precident. I would have empathy to the living Ross family members to see the street name disappear.

In reality, the Ross brothers place in Dallas history isn't so significant that it deserves a historical marker or whatever you want to place in the West End. There are 100's of Dallasites more worthy in honest opinion.

When I talk about the "Historic Ross Avenue", I speak in reverence to the streets place in Dallas history. I speak in the same way that "Broadway" is a historic street in New York... or "Vine" is in Los Angeles... etc.

Dallas has very few street names that evoke a "historic Dallas" emotion. Ross, Swiss, Elm (due to Deep Ellum music history), Beverly (in the bubble) to name the few.

I am a marketer by trade. I understand the brand value in a name. The name Ross Aveneue evokes great emotions in Dallas. This is proven by the Save Ross supporters. It is also proven by the number of businesses that encorporated "Ross Avenue" in the business name. Or a high rise "2100 Ross" that used "Ross" in the title to signify the high end nature of their building.

As Dallas works to revitalize Ross Avenue (getting rid of the used car lots, adding lighting and wider sidewalks, adding higher end townhomes, etc) and the investment in the Arts District - there is no better brand name that keeping Ross Avenue's name the same.

This has nothing to do with Cesar Chavez. If they wanted to name a street "Todd Drive" or "Stanley Marcus Way" I'd make the same arguement to keep the street the same.

It makes me sad that Dallas has lost much of its history (primarily buildings)

But, for many of the building people can make an agruement to tear them down. But for one of the few historic street names... no excuse to make the change.

A marker in the West End does nothing to preserve the history of the street name "Ross Avenue"

To suggest anything else is a naive view of Dallas history, basic branding, and the goals the city has for the future of Ross Avenue and the Arts District

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Todd, It appears to me you are talking about "Ross Avenue" as if it were a generic street name. You write:

"In reality, the Ross brothers place in Dallas history isn't so significant that it deserves a historical marker or whatever you want to place in the West End. There are 100's of Dallasites more worthy in honest opinion.

When I talk about the "Historic Ross Avenue", I speak in reverence to the streets place in Dallas history. I speak in the same way that "Broadway" is a historic street in New York... or "Vine" is in Los Angeles... etc."

Todd, does that mean the Ross Avenue name could just as easily be one of those "generic" names we have talked about and what you are saying would still be no different?

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Clay213 Anonymous "The level of awareness in Dallas 6 months ago proves that a four letter street name does not achieve that goal (of knowing who a street is named after), especially for persons rarely mentioned otherwise in the media or in history. "

And an 11 letter one will?

Again.. G L A R I N G I R O N Y. It's so glaring you seem to have gone blind from your own dose of it.

============ Answer ============

Clay213 Anonymous:

Yes, if that 11 letter name is the name of a internationally well known person also chosen by the largest segment of the Dallas Community, it will be remembered.

Do you know Cesar Chavez? His life and accomplishments are already in history books, news articles, and multiple other publications world wide only 15 years after his death. They are becoming more well known constantly. Millions of more people will immediately recognize the Cesar Chavez name on a street sign in Dallas than would understand who "Ross Avenue" was named after. They will immediately know for whom the street is named. The Cesar Chavez street name will be a statement about Dallas and our understanding of human progress. It will be a very positive statement acknowledging the power of our own U.S. culture! What Cesar Chavez achieved could not have happened elsewhere! Reflecting such understanding will be a tribute to Dallas. It will have real meaning to help counter the "plastic" image Dallas is said by many to suffer from.

You and I live here. We know Dallas is real with living, working, struggling, thriving people. Our street names need to be more inclusively reflective of that reality. We need to better reflect the progress of this great country, and honor our history in that process.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Bill - the good news,

"The Cesar Chavez street name will be a statement about Dallas and our understanding of human progress. It will be a very positive statement acknowledging the power of our own U.S. culture! What Cesar Chavez achieved could not have happened elsewhere! Reflecting such understanding will be a tribute to Dallas. It will have real meaning to help counter the "plastic" image Dallas is said by many to suffer from.

You and I live here. We know Dallas is real with living, working, struggling, thriving people. Our street names need to be more inclusively reflective of that reality. We need to better reflect the progress of this great country, and honor our history in that process."

All this can be accomplished, and more so, by honoring Cesar Chavez at Farmer's Market. Sure, it won't be the same street as the church and march for illegal immigration... but every goal you want will be accomplished in a higher profile manner, and at a place that has great relevancy to Cesar Chavez's lifetime goals.

This is great news!

Well - only if LULAC cares about working with the City of Dallas instead of trying to dig in their heals to show that they can strongarm the city. And if that is the goal - I feel sorry for other Latinos who will receive a black eye from the irresponsible leadership.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Todd Anonymous said: "Sure, it won't be the same street as the church and march for illegal immigration..."

Todd, to belittle or try to lessen the role of the Church in the life of Cesar Chavez indicates your lack of willingness to study and understand him. Then to continue with the ridiculous summary of the Mega March as a "march for illegal immigration" indicates something possibly even more sinister. It would be nice to think it was only a lack of understanding.

Mike, are you going to close down this blog? I want to add my vote in toward that goal.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Bill - again you're allegedly computer savvy - teaching it and all - click the d*mned button above.

For those afraid you'll miss it - or fear there's yet a nuance unsavored, Bill brings you:

Grant's Rant 1000 words

D Magazine:Frontburner 1200 words and 1500 words

DMN 800 words and 200 words with special guest appearance by joey

Observer just under 400 words and 200 and 1000

Banned Breed (a little indie blog) 400 words

Bill's own website 5500+ words

Oh rush right over and enjoy the combinations and permutations of the same we've endured. Don't let me slow you down.

But know this my darlings, WE are the beneficiaries of much too:

Peg:Dallas should rename Ross... 6100+ words

And THIS thread weighing in at a mere 1800 words.

Well that's certainly got to be worth alot. Not really:

Name the street so we feel proud and then our kids won't all quit school.

That argument I might have gone for.... 20,000 words ago.

KILL IT!

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

AND I owe Bill a beer

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Bill - as reported in this article in "Latina Lista"...

"Last year's Mega March in support of undocumented immigrants in Dallas drew almost half a million people."

In the eyes of anyone Undocumented Immigrants = Illegal Immigrants. Different symantics - same exact thing

I apologize if my tone came off sinister. All I meant was that the march was for something that many people have various opinons on (how to handle illegal aliens already in the country).

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Dallas Spohn Verified

We should have rounded them up whilst they were in one spot... yeah!!! I said it ;) you can call me names.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Don't have to.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Tracy Yost Verified

doh! and now they just voted to move forward with renaming Industrial Blvd to Cesar Chavez.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

LOL! Oh that is rich! So how are they gonna post a victory parade this weekend with the Pride weekend already in full swing? What a great planet!

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

::democratic process

I'm sure you mean

::survey of people with online access

right?

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Jason - I am assuming she also meant non-scientically valid poll (not a "vote") where people could call in, vote multiple times, and not necessarily be an official City of Dallas resident

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Curious about Bill and Joey's thought on Industrial. While Tax Payer Julie thinks this is a great win, both Bill and Joey suggested that Ross Avenue was the "only" street that should carry CC's name. Both can recite all those reasons many times - focusing on the church, the mega march and the DISD. Since Industrial doesn't have any of the Latino support points that they claims made "Ross the only choice"... are they going to fight for Ross still or is Industrial suddenly ok?

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

::Todd - I am assuming she also meant non-scientically valid poll

Well, my grandparents are all from Albuquerque, I know exactly what she means. ;o}

I did find it funny explaining the kerfuffle to a Yankee coworker today. Initially he was appalled that Texan's would even consider naming a street after that Mexican revolutionary guy on all the T-shirts...::sigh::

Yep, I'll admit, it took a clueless uber-liberal New Englander to loosen me up on this today, but it was good laugh.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Today has been a truly confusing day. It appears it is possible Industrial Blvd will be renamed Cesar Chavez Blvd. While Ross would for many reasons be a much better choice, Industrial was actually the first street chosen until others were offered for consideration. If that happens, and therefore Ross Avenue remains as Ross Avenue, I would be incredibly puzzled if those on this list and elsewhere supporting the "Save Ross" efforts would not want to still establish a historical marker in the West End to honor the lives of the Ross Brothers.

Once Industrial Boulevard is finally named in honor of Cesar Chavez I would be honored to join with others and make my own $100.00 donation toward such a historical marker. The Ross Brothers should never again sink into the anonymity they suffered from 6 months ago.

Would any Save Ross people, or others on this list who spoke out to 'save Ross,' want to join in with me if this happens? We should not forget our cities history!

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Bill - I have to check with "the boss" (Mrs.) but I'm in (better be, eh?)

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Bill - As I mentioned many times before - I think that the Ross Brothers role in Dallas is adequately represented by a street name. Besides the economic reasons, my big issue with the change was 2 fold - (1) the history of "the street" and what it represents to Dallas (2) there is no rationale reason to rename a street that is already named after a person. Just sets a bad, bad prescedent.

Still - curious if you are going to continue the fight for Ross. The part that scares me is the feelings that no other street in Dallas was acceptable but Ross (according to you and Joey).

Hopefully you are not - but seems odd that both of you were so forceful that no other street (or place like Farmers Market) would be acceptable

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Jason, sounds great. If we can get about 20 others to join with us it will be enough. According to information online the application is $100 plus the $1,600 cost of the marker (according to http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008....) I'm told the West End Merchants were supportive and may also join in. It would make their area more "historical" and add to the charm.

First we need to get Industrial boulevard renamed in honor of Cesar Chavez. Are you willing to help? Can you join us at the Council meeting Wednesday and then the Planning Committee meeting the next day? Do you know some of the "Save Ross" folks who could join us?

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Bill, let me see if I understand you correctly...

A day ago you wanted to trample the Ross name & push your own agenda over somebody who did absolutely nothing to shape Dallas. Now, in defeat, you're calling people out to throw money at remembering the Ross Bros and how they transformed our city?

Laughable, at best.

Pretty disappointed with PegNews comments at the moment. Such propaganda shouldn't be dominating the boards.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Todd, I still strongly believe that Ross is far superior to Industrial for many reasons, most of which we have talked about online for some time. However, if you look back online, you can see that I was fighting for Industrial some time back. Look at the bottom of the web pages at www.studentmotivation.org/CesarChavezAve . Industrial is where this started. Study that photo. This process can also end with Industrial if it is in fact permanently renamed, as was perceived as having been promised some months ago, in honor of Cesar Chavez.

All of our online statements about Ross being the only alternative were made with the understanding that Industrial was off the table. (I certainly never understood why.)

Knowing what I know now I would have worked hard to never place Industrial into consideration. I would have worked only for Ross Ave. However, we have history. I did in fact support Industrial and will go with that if it happens. If it does not, then Ross is the only alternative. It may even take a few years depending on what happens this next month. The process will help education about Cesar Chavez to happen, maybe marches, many debates. I think debates may involve empty chairs as I perceive that many against the Cesar Chavez renaming of Ross would not want to engage in a fact checked debate on the issues we have only touched on in this blog.

The process could be fascinating for the large majority of Dallas citizens as a pride in their heritage grows and their ability to use the methods of Cesar Chavez are developed. Our children could only benefit.

The next 4 weeks will be very interesting, with potential extremes of emotion, and a true test of Dallas. I have increasing confidence it will be peaceful. I was not so confident at noon today.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Betzen Verified

Scott Doyle? Are you the same Scott who has been on this blog?

The Historical Marker has always been part of the renaming of Ross Avenue to honor Cesar Chavez. I've mentioned it often. It is a both/and proposal. We would educate the public from this day forward about the history of the Ross brothers and also expose people to one of the greatest Hispanic leaders of the 20th century, as well as the hispanic history in Dallas the Cesar Chavez Avenue name would represent.

It is almost impossible to visit with any random group of Hispanics and not find some who have ancestors, relatives, or who themselves benefited from the work of Cesar Chavez.

Now, IF Industrial is renamed as Cesar Chavez Blvd then the Cesar Chavez Task Force agreement to pay for the Historical Marker is not needed. I personally would still like to see the Ross brothers history honored by a Historical Marker after seeing how few knew about them. Why would you not join with us to have them remembered with your own $100? Were you honest about your devotion to Ross history?

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

Bill - At the end of all this, the best cliche' for us is "we have to agree to disagree" on changing Ross.

And with that - I pray that LULAC does not make this a multiyear effort for Ross Ave (as you stated it could be) and really, really, really pray that LULAC does everything possible to avoid any violence.

Violence over the changing a street name would do nothing but set back Latinos (many who are not in favor of this issue) and The City of Dallas decades.

I find it sad that you have mentioned potential violence many times over the course of this debate. I know you are not a supporter of violence - but would hope that LULAC leadership would strongly say that this is not an option and lead.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Kidd Verified

Like I said in the beginning, I dont have an issue with changing city street names, what I do have an issue with is a small minority(LULAC)within a majority population(Latins)dictating an agenda most of said majority population doesnt want. Why not consider naming a street after a local latin leader or person of distinction, why cant dallas be different and take some pride in our history for once?

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Michael Davis Verified

I just wanted to say thanks to the people that post here and had my back. Usually I let most stuff go, but some things are too ugly to ignore.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

I agree Chrisdanger - it seems that LULAC is do the Cesar Chavez thing nationally. To follow the tradition of Dallas, I'd prefer that local, influential Latino's were the focus. I totally understand where CC stands from a national perspective... But would love to honor local folks first.

I'd have no issue with 5 or 6 or 7 NEW streets around the metroplex named in honor of local Latinos. To me, this should have happen first - over CC.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I've explained my strong opposition to this in detail - no need to keep railing that poor horsie's corpse. IJS it's pretty damn hypocritical of you to start asking for Ross remembrance donations after trampling their name on your Chavez crusade.

JESUS H. CHRIST, CAN WE MOVE ON?!

Doyle's done with this bitch.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Stein Verified

No, I am not Rasansky. But, we think alike :)

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/Ra...

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/ar...

Council member Mitchell Rasansky has sharply opposed renaming Ross Avenue or Industrial Boulevard for civil rights leader Cesar Chavez.

But today he offered an official compromise in the form of a memo to his council colleagues.

In the memo, he calls for renaming the Dallas Farmers Market downtown for Mr. Chavez.

The market already has a plaque honoring Mr. Chavez's work on behalf of farm workers. Finding it is the trick.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I'm a bigger fan of my comment in pirate speak, btw. Needs more of this.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

Guys, guys this is a great story, but all I wanted to know was, did anyone know what was Ross ave named after, and where did Goss on Ross go. Alexander Troup, Historian.

1 year, 1 month ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

Then again, the Little Mexico of Dallas has to exist, but this should be realize in a tactful way, while Webbs Chapel,once a very Anglo area and dating back to the 1840s , is one center ment for our new Amercian's, then again..the history of multi immigration for this city and state is a very sensitive subject...Ross belongs to a lot of folks who want it to remain Ross, I have observed....A/T. Local Historian.

10 months, 3 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )