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Tuesday, December 2, 2008

Mayor Tom Leppert and billionaire T. Boone Pickens snarl DART’s plans to buy new buses

By Pegasus News wire

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DART was this-close to buying new buses that would be powered by diesel until Mayor Tom Leppert and billionaire T. Boone T. Pickens intervened to try and persuade the transportation agency to buy buses powered by natural gas instead.

Leppert ostensibly is interested in natural gas as a better choice environmentally. Pickens owns a bunch of natural gas and is on a mission to get the U.S. of A. off foreign oil and on to his natural gas.

The objections: DART isn't 100% persuaded that diesel is a better environmental option than natural gas. Also, natural-gas buses are going to be more expensive and DART's budget situation has already exhibited difficulties in the past.

Posted by T.G.

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Comments

snowboard9

snowboard9 Anonymous

Boone T Pickens? I thought it was T Boone Pickens. Maybe it's T-Bone Pickens?

Anyway, I can see where natural gas may be better but I cringe at seeing a "supplier" involved in the selection process.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

John McClelland

John McClelland Verified

Better environmentally would be electric powered buses. Natural gas is still a fossil fuel.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Teresa Gubbins

Teresa Gubbins Staff

snowboard9, thanks, you are correct. it was very late when i put that up last night. (luv your T-Bone idea.)

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Clay213 Anonymous

John McClelland Verified

Better environmentally would be electric powered buses. Natural gas is still a fossil fuel.

Right, because they harvest electricity from lightning!

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup

alexander troup Verified

This is another stupid Mayor and Billionare story....read the Roses, Guns and Tulips....I am suprised Mark Cuban is not mixed up in this also.....one day they will burn everyone out with the Green effect....hype....and no more type....bland food again........uggg,

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

xdavidwattsx

xdavidwattsx Anonymous

Alexander, you make this site not worth reading anymore. I come in here, see you crapping up all of threads with your two bit comments, and leave the site not wanting to click on anything more.

Your shtick is tired and is sucking the lifeforce out of these threads.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Travis Bush

Travis Bush Verified

Oh come on David..less QQ already. You don't have to read everything that is posted.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

xdavidwattsx

xdavidwattsx Anonymous

That's the problem, I can't get to anything posted cause 90 percent of it is crap from Alexander. Too much crap to wade through to make the site comments even worth reading anymore.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice

Jason Rice Verified

x*x THAT's why you haven't ripped me a new one in forever.

Man I was feeling deserted. I'm glad it wasn't something I said... or um... something maybe I hadn't said rudely enough.

Anyway. I have "online rejection issues"

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Travis Bush

Travis Bush Verified

Your problem is with the way Peg News has limited views of Latest Comments. This can be remedied by actually setting up what you want to read. Perusing the articles instead of Latest Comments also helps. Don't lay it all on one user. It isn't nice and it makes you look like an epeen.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice

Jason Rice Verified

Or do what I do and just follow Travis around and snipe at him.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Travis Bush

Travis Bush Verified

And Rice Versa..

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC

DC Anonymous

Well, actually, I would say that xx comes out kind of strong and TB takes this perhaps a little too far the other way.

Overall, I'd say that if everyone were using the site for just information gathering it would be fine to just limit what you want to look at from the front page or use the customization tools, but somehow I think that part of the appeal of the site is the exchange between users.

I'll admit that now when I look at the recent comments I do not always look at the comments but I read the left hand side of the column instead so I can eliminate reading some things that may potentially insightful but are either so dense or so mechanically painful that I cannot take it.

I think at this point M or whoever programs whatever needs to think about some other meaningful ways to customize the site, whether it's an 'ignore user' feature or something else.

As far as this story goes, it's over 9000.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jeremy Dunck

Jeremy Dunck Staff

Thanks for taking the time to complain about this. :)

(Aside, davidg and I are the programmers at Pegasus now. Brett has moved on. We miss him.)

We definitely recognize there's a problem to be solved here.

We've been struggling a bit with AT's comments-- not really because of the content, but because of the volume. A lot of his comments are on-topic and interesting, if a little hard to understand. I think the problem isn't that he's eccentric-- it's that he's (apparently) got a lot of time to contribute, and it's not fair for one person to have such a loud voice on the site.

At the same time, he's not spouting hate and violence, so we don't feel good about censoring him or anyone like him.

We've considered an "ignore user" feature, where individual users could choose to block anything from another specific user. I'm not really opposed to the idea, just not sure it's good.

The problem is that it sounds to me like the death of discussion. When you're in public, if someone's talking your ear off, there's a way to politely but firmly remove them or yourself from the discussion. Not so on the site-- but just turning off anyone you disagree with is bad, too, right? Bad for you, and for the community, since we don't get to hear an argument that might inform and shape our own opinions. In general, I'm for letting people choose for themselves who to tune in or out, but we also want people new to the community to have a good experience in comments, and if everybody ends up having to tune out the same people, then the community suffers. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good solution.

One thing we're thinking about is how to do something to reduce emphasis on bad contributions (as determined by the community). Like fading the text of comments, or reducing text size.

For certain, Latest Comments could be improved, and people use it a lot.

"As far as this story goes, it's over 9000. "

I'm not sure I understand. :-(

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Kidd

Chris Kidd Verified

Without getting too much into ATs scene, Im guessing he has alot of free time on his hands. Thats not really a bad thing, just the "confucius"- style ramblings get a bit tiring to read. Lets try in the future a little less Cactus Pryor and a little more Frank J. Dobie

That being said, lets get this CNG-powered bus back up and running. Im in agreement with T-Bird Pickens and Mayor Tom Slick, we need to push this technology as it uses a domestic resource and these buses are also built here in the Good Ol' U.S. Of A

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

John McClelland

John McClelland Verified

Clay 213 Anonymous

Electricity is "harvested" from many different sources. Nice try at wit. You failed again.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

geopunk

geopunk Anonymous

I value AT's comments. Some people float above the rest of us because they are so full of themselves...hmmm. Everything they say must be valued because they said it, it must be smart as hell, because they said it. Then they even tell us how to act on the site that isnt even theirs. Wow!!!! That is certainly not the everyman's man, Mr. Alex T. Rock on my brother.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup

alexander troup Verified

Say Chris, I dont have a lot of free anything, just an old dog here, telling what I have seen or been through...

Kind of like... master of the Metroplex and sharing this vision, while I dont like saying what I have said about the last 3 Mayors, they have done some and some really stupid things...besides I like that Mayor Tom Slick stuff, you hit it on the head there, he is from the old 20th Century sticks, this needs to be an era of change...maybe next month..We will have to see soon the real 21st Century...change.. next time maybe some Dobbie too, beside I am still in the flu season, and my complements to the rest of the Peg staff....A/T, Rambler needs to settle down..

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice

Jason Rice Verified

As one guilty of "Buffer overrun syndrome" bickering with Pavel, Doyle, Travis and even some hotheads in some venues, I confess some guilt at tying up the "Latest Comments." It is a magnificent resource socially and magnificent informational indicator, especially for new or otherwise overlooked stories ... much like the oft-maligned "digg effect."

I have no suggestion to streamline the feature, keep it relevant and yet transparent or even ways to split or consolidate the functions it represents, but I do prize it and wish it wasn't so easily overrun by even a brief poniard session between Travis and myself.

Could a user him/herself have a preference to "clutter latest comments" or not as part of submission? Default would be "do clutter" for newcomers and such, but if I know I'm just clutter, could I say so? Maybe even a user preference to say "usually I'm clutter, unless I say specifically otherwise".

$0.02

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jeremy Dunck

Jeremy Dunck Staff

To be clear, I don't think anyone's comments are clutter in general. Off-topic, sometimes, but not clutter.

I want discussion to be rich, varied, and respectful of people's time.

I don't want people to feel pressure to self-censor or mark their own contributions as worth ignoring.

Balance.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Kidd

Chris Kidd Verified

Alex, yer alright, your a man of alot of wisdom, I applaude you and your views of history. Your PN's own Frank X Tolbert in the flesh.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice

Jason Rice Verified

But Jeremy - seriously, I can follow my buddies/enemies easily in my "Favorites Activity" column and sometimes I'd rather not clutter the front page. So if it becomes an easy task (as a coder, I know what a stupid statement that is) go for it!

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

xdavidwattsx

xdavidwattsx Anonymous

I don't care about the quantity of anyone's posts as long as they are coherent. More conversation is almost always a good thing. But give me some quality. Use english. Say something that isn't total gibberish.

But if you guys like junk for the sake of junk then go for broke. Just don't be surprised when people stop reading and commenting.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle

Scott Doyle Verified

I don't want people to feel pressure to self-censor or mark their own contributions as worth ignoring.

Methinks I've adapted reasonably well throughout my time here...unless I truly feel I'm contributing (granted, I consider funny contributing) I typically hold my tongue. There are obvious exceptions when I'm bored and take advantage of someone easily baited, but that's typically entertaining just the same.

Gotta say it'd be nice if you wizArds of the intertron could code up a different comment layout for those of us who pay attention to those just as much as stories. However, I'd rather the change be well thought out - don't pull a Patriot Act pls.

Admittedly, if I see a block of comments from one user or a string related to one story I don't care about, I don't even bother viewing all comments to sift through them. Mayhaps only bump each story once with the latest comment (including comment count, obv) rather than displaying each individual response?

Regarding an ignore feature, we're grown people. If you know you don't like a particular user's input...don't read it. You incredibly racka disciprine if an adult can't ignore an internet comment.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC

DC Anonymous

Someone else said it better:

"On a blog as elsewhere, sounding intelligent and showing manners is a worthy adult goal."

I think we can agree the latest comments display needs an update. Since the headline stories can be skimpy on content the responses make the site. When those responses are stream of conciousness style it's not worth reading any more.

Just to help JD so he isn't embarrassed at his next internet related meeting:

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Travis Bush

Travis Bush Verified

"When those responses are stream of conciousness style it's not worth reading any more."

Really? Peg News could be sterile like DMN. Perhaps that is what some of you guys want? Every time someone comments, it keeps a story alive, regardless of the perceived "quality" of the comment. The problem is that fostering a community atmosphere has to allow for all users to have discussions, on and off topic. The current configuration of Peg News leaves little choice but to have these two types of conversation mixed in with each other.

I've been around the Internets a long time and I've run into the E-snobs before. Their viewing pleasure gets interrupted by something they consider abnormal. This is a control issue, plain and simple. If one person on a website impedes your ability to READ and comment, there isn't much to be said but GET OVER YOURSELF.

There could also be a "Free For All" section where we could propagate our own threads that related to any given topic. This might require some moderation, but it would separate purely topic related comments, with the social aspect, which I think is just as important as postulating on Tom Leppert and T Boone Pickens' penchant for gas.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Clay213 Anonymous

McClelland: I wasn't trying to be witty. Just pointing out you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you are just still trying to be a politician?

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

xdavidwattsx

xdavidwattsx Anonymous

"I've been around the Internets a long time and I've run into the E-snobs before. Their viewing pleasure gets interrupted by something they consider abnormal. This is a control issue, plain and simple. If one person on a website impedes your ability to READ and comment, there isn't much to be said but GET OVER YOURSELF. "

If the site gets unreadable to the point that people stop visiting and commenting, that's not a control issue that's a quality control issue. Peg relies on traffic. Some of us have jobs that don't allow us to sit on the site all day and read gibberish. When people visit the site and are overwhelmed with garbage they stop coming back. I can get news and info from a myriad of places without putting up with nonsense.

Call me all the names you want but it doesn't change the reality of it.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

John McClelland

John McClelland Verified

Clay, show me that 1000 buses driving around DFW burning CNG is cleaner than 1000 buses running on electric batteries driving around DFW. You can also take into account where the CNG and electricity both come from-- and no, neither one comes from only one source.

Then, as the politician, I will take your study under advisement.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle

Scott Doyle Verified

Reality is that if comments upset you to the point you threaten to leave visit the site, it's not the articles that kept you here in the first place. Ostracizing someone on account of your personal tastes isn't exactly PN game (that I'm aware of), and interfering on your own likely won't end well.

Guess my idea of condensed comments would be nixed by someone hitting a new story every few mins...but it would still help prevent trains that muck up our works.

I maintain issue with an ignore feature, though, in that it's petty and people could easily miss valuable information pertaining to the thread, their daily activities, etc...also might impede the flow of conversation and doesn't stand to benefit anyone, simply mitigate annoyance that you should be able to ignore on your own. Sticking to comments of your favorited users may be a solution, but you'd miss out on what noobs have to offer unless a favorite joins the mix.

Doyle's solution: ban all who oppose me, cater your ad strategies to my needs, and issue Fisher shares in my name as often as possible. It'll work, I promise!

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle

Scott Doyle Verified

Umm, threaten to leave visit .

I'm at work too, xDWx - can't be bothered with proofreading!

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC

DC Anonymous

If one user impedes people's ability to read and comment, it's a sign that the site could be improved upon. If that's considered pretentious and requires user name calling, so be it.

This thread is an excellent example of where the current format is both useful and limited. TG posted barely 100 words and a link in the original piece, it generated a number of comments and traffic to the site and yet the topic has gone off the rails. In the very least users can read it.

It's a challenge for Jeremy et al to design an interface to allow ongoing free form discussions without eliminating single users.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Travis Bush

Travis Bush Verified

"If one user impedes people's ability to read and comment, it's a sign that the site could be improved upon."

Is this really the case? It certainly isn't applicable to the entire site. No one impedes your ability to read and comment on any given subject, regardless of any other contribution.

One way to solve the problem with Latest Comments would either be to list more of them, list them by day, or have the user be able to choose how many of the latest comments one wanted to see.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Billusa99

Billusa99 Anonymous

Topic Comments: Clean diesel and CNG are approx. the same WRT emmissions, now. So it comes down to cost. What will diesel be in 10 yrs vs. natural gas. How much more will CNG buses be -- we really do not have the number yet. Electricity is a complete non-starter. The majority of electricity in TX comes from coal. And green house gas emissions are not regulated in TX.

User Comments: I wish I could find the cite, but I'm too busy now. It had to do with moderated vs. unmoderated vs. loosely moderated boards and how the latter two, after a period of gestation, always attract a modicum of posters that the people have issues with. Which drives away people who get fed up.

Telling someone to "get over it" is somewhat juvenile, IMO, and leads nowhere to solving the issue of "who is hogging the airwaves" and "how many people are staying away" due to comments they are tired of wading through.

Every long term successful board or forum I have ever used or seen either has heavy moderation OR an 'ignore user' feature. I would suggest that if Peg wants adults to act as adults, then let adults make the choice of who they want to ignore without having to wade past them every 34 pixels.

It can do nothing but improve the experience.

And lastly, here we have a classic case of a thread going completely OT, about an important subject. How about some moderation to rip out anything here not related to CNG and DART, and start a thread about this all important topic so the whole damn community can weigh in. Or ignore, as they see fit.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC

DC Anonymous

Yes, actually I do think that seeing chunks of the comments column eaten up with unrelated posts constructed from sentence fragments and excessive punctuation makes it difficult to read and post anything meaningful to the site.

The original post does have some significant issues in it and as B# states, we've lost it.

I think we can agree the comments section could be revamped. I have no idea how it could be done from the programming side, but I picture doing away entirely with the column format and creating something more like an expanding tree from the original post where subsequent posts could be closer to either the original post or more closely related to other users' comments. The relation could be made by the user and or by the mods. Perhaps those whom have been around the internet longer could comment.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Travis Bush

Travis Bush Verified

"Yes, actually I do think that seeing chunks of the comments column eaten up with unrelated posts constructed from sentence fragments and excessive punctuation makes it difficult to read and post anything meaningful to the site."

Not sure how that works. Does your brain cease to function by merely reading what one person posts? I doubt it and BTW, you have done a great job alienating a PN user. An older guy who probably doesn't have much message board experience comes to Peg News, enjoys his time here, shares Dallas history with us. This causes some to get their panties all in a wad simply because they don't like the odd way he posts messages. Rather shallow if you ask me. I got over it and so can you. I hope making him feel unwelcome assuages your dire need for some kind of purist news venue.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC

DC Anonymous

Well, if you do not care for my comments I suggest you take some of your own advise.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Travis Bush

Travis Bush Verified

Just calling BS when I see it.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Mike Orren

Mike Orren Staff

Hey y'all: I've been offline much of today and am putting together a blog post on the comment issue now. Please hold the discussion on that until I get it posted and we can take it over there. Shouldn't be much longer.

Thanks!

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Mike Orren

Mike Orren Staff

Awright, let's move the comment on comments over here:

http://www.pegasusnews.com/blogs/pega...

Thanks!

And, um, I'm in favor of natural gas busses, myself.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jeremy Dunck

Jeremy Dunck Staff

DC: I'll respond to your threading idea over on Mike's post.

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Clay213 Anonymous

Sources of electricity generation in Texas(2006) 

* Natural Gas: 49.0%
* Coal: 36.5%
* Nuclear: 10.3%
* All Other Renewable Energy Sources: 2.0%
* Other Gases: 1.2%
* Petroleum: 0.4%
* Hydroelectric: 0.2%

http://www.window.state.tx.us/special...

So tell me how your electric bus is going to be any better?

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

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