qaggaz Anonymous

*"AZA accreditation is a trade association and does not guarantee Jenny's well-being. Furthermore, accreditation does not equal independent oversight."*

Really? According to the AZA (http://www.aza.org/Accreditation/inde...) "AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums undergo a thorough review that includes a detailed accreditation application as well as a multiple day on-site inspection by a team of experts from around the country." Sounds like independent oversight to me (unless, that is, you believe that all zoos are inherently bad). Given the USDA's inability to protect the human food supply, I do not put much faith in their oversight of either zoos or sanctuaries.

Also, you may want to check out http://www.aza.org/elephantconservation/.

Of course, accreditation alone does not guarantee an animal's well-being anymore than placement in an unaccredited facility. Likewise, placement in a sanctuary does not guarantee that the animal will receive the level of veterinary care that she would at an AZA facility.

One point in favor of the Mexican facility is that they are willing to take Jenny as a loan, the zoo wants her back once the new elephant exhibit is built. The sanctuary expects the zoo to donate Jenny permanently.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Kellymac1 Anonymous

If the AZA affiliation is THE last word on excellent elephant-care and THE guarantee of excellence that Mr. Hudson claims it to be than how can you explain Lucky in the San Antonio zoo - 46 years long - she is now alone and in a terribly inadequate enclosure. AZA didn't have a problem renewing the zoo's accreditation even though they are in conflict with AZA recommendations that elephants are not to be housed alone. Not much oversight is there?

Not to mention Sissy from El Paso and Winkie from Madison (both now at TES) as well as Annie from Milwaukee ( now at PAWS) all were in AZA accredited zoos when they faced terrible abuse from zookeepers that was captured on video and revealed to the public. It was only the public outcry and further intervention by the USDA that allowed this abuse to stop and these elephants transferred to sanctuaries where they are now doing very well.

The AZA accreditation isn't what Mr. Hudson claims it to be - it does not guarantee anything in terms of level of care -- it provides only recommendations. How can it possibly guarantee anything when the zoo is only inspected once every 5 years? If we cannot protect our zoo elephants here in the U.S. completely how can you expect any enforcement in MEXICO? The USDA isn't perfect but it HAS saved the lives of many abused elephants.

Please support Jenny going to a sanctuary. thank you.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

aduxxx Anonymous

First of all, no one is saying that the A.Z.A is the ultimate authority on animal husbandry. Greg Hudson is not claiming that the A.Z.A. is the ultimate "word" on animal husbandry. But it's "a word" and they really aren't as lax as some folks have made them out to be. Their standards are actually quite high, and their inspections brutal which is why not every single Zoo or Aquarium in this country is accredited. Sure, they don't immediately remove accredidation for a violation upon inspection, but they do expect it fixed - and if it is not in the given time frame - an institution WILL lose their accredidation.

What do we know about this "Sanctuary" except for emotional pleas put out by people who have never been there and probably know nothing much about the Dallas Zoo or the A.Z.A.?? Really? What do we know? It is not open to the public. How qualified are their keepers? Why don't they have a full time veterinary doctor on payroll? What happens when all their animals get sick? What medical care will the animals get? What happens when their donors are feeling the economic crunch and no longer make donations? Really? Do we know any of these answers?

It makes me wonder if the proponents of this sanctuary are opponents of mainstream zoological institutions altogether.

Why are they so eager to discount the A.Z.A and the Dallas Zoo for a place that the citizens of Dallas know nothing about, could never visit and a third party organization could not criticize?

And why are so many people assuming anything in MEXICO is bad and evil and sub-standard, just because it happens to be located in Mexico? We can actually visit this institution in Mexico, but we cannot visit the sanctuary. Aren't you suspicious of any place that will not let you view the animal? I sure am! A camera is NOT the same. Jenny, the elephant, belongs to the citizens of Dallas. She is an ambassador to her species and yes, she belongs to all of us and some folks have an inherent dislike to animals being "owned", but really, that is what the reality is. She will go on loan at a facility that has been approved by the major zoological association in the United States, as well as highly Senior Animal Staff of the Dallas Zoo. In Mexico, she would get the care (medical and otherwise) that she needs, and would be able to return to the citizens of Dallas when adequate enclosure (which is already planned and being prepared) is available.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Traveler7 Anonymous

Sending Jenny to Mexico, a country which historically has an odious record of abused animals from the smallest Chihuahua to the largest elephant, is the most idiotic idea that has ever been concocted. There are sanctuaries right here in the U.S. which would offer the very best of care for Jenny so why is Dallas and the Zoo sending her to Mexico where the treatment of animals is not a priority? If this horribly insane idea comes to fruition, we can only hope that Jenny will survive her "loan" status without major mishaps or death. I can only hope for a miracle that the City of Dallas will come to its senses.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Kellymac1 Anonymous

Hi ADUXXX:

We don't just think Mexico is bad for animal care - we KNOW it is firsthand!

In Mexico City in 1998, we witnessed 3 elephants chained in the hot sun for hours with no access to shade or water. When we inquired about their well being we were told that they were merely property, with no rights and to mind our own business. Upon further investigation, we learned that these elephants were not listed in any zoological registry and most likely continued to suffer and died an anonymous death. This image haunts me to this day.

Have you ever been to Mexico? Not at a swanky resort, but actually in the streets of Mexico? There are sick, stray dogs roaming the streets - Mexican animal shelters are filthy and practice inhumane forms of "euthanasia.” There is no funding or awareness for spay/neuter programs that would help to alleviate animal suffering--overall, a legacy of unwanted animals and cruel conditions. We have a border control problem in the U.S. for a very good reason! When humans are suffering so will animals and we all know that humans and animals alike suffer in Mexico.

Getting back to elephants. The Africam Safari Park does not list their elephants in any major zoological registry nor, do they list them in any elephant studbook (against AZA guidelines). They also don't have any records available of the elephants that have lived there in the past, for how long, and when they died. This is scary and does not bode well for Jenny’s future. Because we were concerned for Jenny’s future, we submitted a long list of questions to Mr. Hudson asking for details about Africam Safari Park’s history, governance, management, and financials, in addition to gaining a complete understanding of the total quality of life (and care) that is in store for her at this institution. He was unable to answer fully instead referring us to the AZA and its accreditation process as the primary source for his trust in this institution. We have submitted our questions instead to Jim Maddy, CEO of the AZA and are currently waiting for his response so we can learn more about Africam Safari Park. We searched, but couldn’t find the Africam Safari Park’s annual report or financial information on their website. www.africamsafari.com.mx It looks like a tourist attraction to us and that also doesn't bode well for Jenny's future.

We are not saying that Jenny absolutely must go to a sanctuary -- why not to one of the wonderful AZA accredited zoos that have great elephant programs: Oakland Zoo, North Carolina Zoo or the San Diego Zoo since she is on loan anyway?

Also, you're wrong that sanctuaries are closed to the public. The Elephant Sanctuary in TN allows visitors on volunteer days. It's a great way to offer support to the elephants - they are overseen by the USDA (an agency that actually has the AUTHORITY to enforce laws and the Animal Welfare Act UNLIKE the AZA) and they are a member of TAOS with their own high standards that far exceed AZA recommendations for the care of captive elephants. Just because a sanctuary approaches their care for elephants from a different philosophy than most zoos doesn’t mean that their valuable work should be discredited. The staff at The Elephant Sanctuary spends their energies caring for the elephants that have been "on display" and in some cases brutally abused at previous facilities -- their goal and mission is not to continue this practice. They are highly funded, take a look at their annual reports on www.elephants.com and are a FOUR STAR rated charity. If you investigate further you will see nothing “suspicious” about their work or vision. Also, PAWS in California DOES allow visitors just look at their web site for more details at www.pawsweb.org
I would recommend a visit to PAWS to see Annie who was abused at the AZA accredited Milwaukee zoo before she was released to PAWS. Chances are you might find her happily roaming the hills or napping in the grass, something she was never able to do in the AZA accredited facility she came from.

Sincerely, Kelly, Sandra and Sally Concerned for JENNY

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

twisteddog Anonymous

Sell the elephant to Fearing's.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

qaggaz Anonymous

Hi Kellymac1,

Thanks for mentioning the Watani Grasslands Reserve exhibit at the NC Zoo. In addition to potentially being an alternative to the Africam park in Mexico, the exhibit itself is a great model for what the new African savanna expansion at the Dallas Zoo could be like. I wonder if they have room or the desire to take on Jenny as a loan?

While I do see the need for sanctuaries to place old, mistreated, and injured animals; I, and many others, disagree with the underlying philosophy at the The Elephant Sanctuary in TN. Specifically, I believe that public display of these magnificent animals is the only way to ensure the long term survival of these species. While I am sure that The Elephant Sanctuary does good work with the elephants in their care, ensuring species survival through breeding programs, educational outreach and simple contact between animals and the general public is important. I do think that Zoos (and Aquaria) can and should be the appropriate institutions to carry on this vital duty.

We should hold these institutions to a very high standard of care while still placing the animals on display for public viewing so that future generations can continue to learn from, and learn to respect, these animals.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jus2kewl Anonymous

ADUXXX....Apparently you do not know it, but the AZA is "all sizzle and no sausage." I have been intensely involved for decades with getting zoo eles removed and placed into approved sanctuaries like TES and PAWS. I know eles and I know the Dallas zoo. Please remember this old English proverb: "Stupidity won't kill you, but it can make you sweat." And you must be sweating like crazy, ADUXXX.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

qaggaz Anonymous

Jus2kewl,

Great ad hominum attack on Aduxxx and the AZA. Your comment that you "have been intensely involved for decades with getting zoo eles removed" has now served to completely discredit anything that you have or will say on this topic. Apparently you don't like zoos. Fine, don't go! So you know the Dallas zoo? Are you actually a resident of the City of Dallas? Do you pay taxes here? If not, please go away.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jus2kewl Anonymous

Hey "qaggaz"....Always interesting to read comments from a "pro zoo" individual who feels they know Latin. I was formerly a resident of Dallas and consider it a great part of the metroplex; however, Dallas zoo is definitely nothing to brag about. And I do not have to pay Dallas taxes to realize there is a problem with sending Jenny to Mexico, even on "loan." As for disliking zoos, you are wrong.....I despise them! I do not visit zoos, but know zoos are the same all over the world...dens of despair for animals wanting to be free as intended. I am sorry you feel I have "discredited" anything I might say on this topic but I am sure the eles I have helped relocate to sanctuaries would disagree with you on that. Finis exito!

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

qaggaz Anonymous

When Jus2kewl is not insulting people on online forums, he probably sits in his self-built tree hut, foraging for an all vegan diet of nuts and berries, hating all zoos and people that wear leather shoes. The rest of us, obviously inferior people, who appreciate the work in education and conservation that zoological institutions bring to us and future generations are, without a doubt, all stupid and wrong. That's why he doesn't want to engage in civil, rational discourse on this topic like other posters on this thread with differing views.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

aduxxx Anonymous

A++ post, Kellymac1! I agree that Oakland and NC Zoo are both fine institutions. But you seriously don't have to go as far as Mexico to see sick, stray dogs roaming the streets. Have you been near Fair Park lately? There are entire packs of sick, stray dogs that attack the local turtles as well as other people's pets. The fact that there are bad shelters and stray dogs in Mexico says nothing about the particular park we are talking about.

I fear that a number of people with very radical views towards zoos are using this most unfortunate situation as a tool for their propaganda of grossly misrepresenting the very great work being done by many zoos and the AZA alike to fit their own agenda (just look at Jus3kewl and his sudden and unnecessary insults on this discussion). Wasn't this supposed to be about Jenny?

And while the USDA can enforce laws, the laws you are talking about are very basic. Reputable zoos go far beyond any USDA law in their care of animals. And yes, that includes Oakland, NC Zoo, but also the Dallas Zoo.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Kellymac1 Anonymous

Thanks to everyone.......... We're not at all against zoos...we just want to offer for your consideration that not every zoo is the best possible place for a captive Asian or African elephant to spend the rest of their years. There are zoos that are terrific no doubt, but others that do not live up to their AZA credentials.

The reason to bring up Mexico is only to point out that it does have a problem with pet overpopulation and no plans or resources to deal with the problems. Agreed.....we have a terrible problem in our country with pet overpopulation, but there are organizations working on solutions as well as committing resources to this problem such as spay/neuter programs. We have made strides but still have a long way to go. However, Mexico doesn't have the awareness or the means to deal with the problem. If the U.S. with all of our resources doesn't yet have a handle on the pet population problem what chance does Mexico have? That's the point we were trying to make. Also, that laws for animal ownership won't apply once Jenny crosses the U.S. border -- it will be almost impossible to enforce bringing her back. That's what is worrying us also. We just hope that Jenny can stay in the U.S. at the best possible facility either aanother excellent zoo or sanctuary.

Sincerely, Kelly Sally Sandy

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Kellymac1 Anonymous

FYI --here's Zoo Director Hudson's response to those who write to him concerned about Jenny. It's copied and paste below.

I'd like to add that what is troubling many of us is that AZA guidelines are not enforced at zoos in the U.S. And reaccreditation is granted even without compliance with AZA minimum guidelines. Then what guarantees are there of the standard of her care in MEXICO?

Also Africam doesn't list their Asian elephants in any zoological registry nor in the studbook which is also not in compliance of AZA. They've never had ANY African elephants at this place and no elephants who have ever lived or died at Africam have been documented. So we do not know what happened to them (how long they lived, what caused their death). Legally speaking, what guarantees has the Dallas Zoo given the citizens that she WILL still be under the jurisdiction of U.S. laws once she crosses that border? I've checked with a couple of lawyers that I know and they are doubtful that she would have any protections that the Zoo claims she would have. I think before they ship her off they should have their legal counsel issue a statement about this to assure the public. How will they be able to ever bring her back to Dallas if she's not legally able to come back?

Here's his statement:

July 18, 2008

Thank you for your interest and concern regarding Jenny, the Dallas Zoo’s elephant. The Dallas Zoo is committed to providing the highest quality of care for our animals. After careful consideration of various AZA accredited zoological parks and our current elephant habitat at the Dallas Zoo, the Zoo staff has decided that Jenny the elephant will be going to Africam Safari Park in Puebla, Mexico later this year so that she can socialize with other elephants in a fantastic facility.

Jenny has been a resident of our Dallas Zoo for over 21 years. She has received tremendous care during her stay. It has been a very difficult decision for the staff of our Zoo but they have made this decision with only the best interest of this beloved animal in mind. She will be on loan to this facility and will remain the responsibility of the Dallas Zoo. She could be brought back to the Dallas Zoo if we so choose.

It’s important to understand that Africam Safari Park, like the Dallas Zoo, San Diego Zoo, Fort Worth Zoo, Columbus Zoo, and approximately 215 other zoos and aquariums in the United States, Canada, and Mexico, is an ACCREDITED facility through the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) (www.aza.org). Africam Safari Park has passed their inspection process and has an excellent elephant facility, including three elephants on their 617-acre forested preserve. They will also be adding another female African elephant by the end of the summer to be a constant companion for Jenny when she arrives this fall. Jenny will receive total quality care and will be cared for by a team of six full-time veterinarians, a full-time nutritionist, an enrichment professional as well as a staff of six dedicated solely to what will now be a total of five elephants (from a total staff of over 300 employees).

The AZA standards not only encompass USDA standards but they go beyond them. That’s why less than 10% of licensed USDA facilities are accredited by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums and only two in all of Mexico. Even though USDA guidelines are not enforced in Mexico, by sending Jenny to an AZA accredited facility, we are assured that they practice the same stringent guidelines followed by the Dallas Zoo. Our Zoo will always have access to this facility to witness these standards in practice. The sanctuaries that have been mentioned by the animal activists as a possible place for Jenny do not have these comprehensive standards for operations and care as a part of their formal association.

Lastly, the Dallas Zoo will not be receiving financial remuneration for sending Jenny to the Africam Safari Park.

I hope this gives you a better understanding of Jenny’s new home and the care that she will be receiving. Africam Safari Park is a wonderful organization and we encourage you to visit their Web site at www.africamsafari.com.mx/ to learn more about their institution. The Dallas Zoo is committed to elephants and we look forward to having them back here in a new, wonderful habitat in the near future.

Sincerely,

Gregg Hudson Dallas Zoo Director

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

qaggaz Anonymous

Thanks for posting Gregg Hudson's response to your inquiry. It helps to understand both sides of this issue.

So if I understand your concerns, the primary issue with the Africam park is one of trust. Gregg Hudson, and the Dallas zoo staff, believe that Africam will honor their commitments to both the zoo and the AZA. You are concerned because some other institutions do not honor these commitments to quality animal care and the Africam facility has no verifiable record regarding quality care of African Elephants. You are also concerned that should the Africam park not provide the level of care promised there would be no way to compel them to do so since they are not within the jurisdiction of the US legal system. Is that a fair summary?

It would seem that by your argument is one of guilt by association, however when you break the argument down as a syllogism, it does not obtain. i. e.

Argument 1:

+Major premise: Some AZA accredited facilites do not follow the recommended guidelines for elephant care.

+Minor Premise: Africam is an AZA accredited facility.

+(Invalid) Conclusion: Africam does not follow the recommended guidelines for elephant care.

Argument 2:

+Major Premise: Some animals are abused without legal consequence under Mexican jurisdiction.

+Minor Premise: The Africam park is subject to Mexican jurisdiction.

+(Invalid) Conclusion: The Africam park abuses animals without legal consequence.

You seem to be assuming the worst-case scenario. I would assume, on the other hand, that the City of Dallas (by way of the Dallas Zoo) has a contract with Africam outlining Africam's rights and responsibilities regarding the ongoing care of Jenny. Mexico does have a legal system, and Dallas could file suit if Africam does not live up to the terms of the contract. This contract could specify that Africam must follow all AZA guidelines, allow regular inspections from Dallas Zoo staff to ensure compliance, and provide for specific remedies should Africam be found not in compliance.

If you were to see such a contract, would you be satisfied?

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Kellymac1 Anonymous

Thank you so much for your analysis of our concerns.

I think the contract and legal verification of its validity and ability to be enforced given the U.S./Mexico complications will reassure many of us!

Many, many thanks!

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Salsa Anonymous

Let's talk about some misinformation out there. People are saying that Africam isn't listed on any registry for elephants? They are on ISIS registry and have been for years, as required by AZA accreditation. Unfortunately people assume and don't bother to look under "Puebla" in the ISIS records, which is where their elephants are listed. ISIS is the largest animal database in the world.
AZA accreditation applicants do so voluntarily, and then must pass a difficult inspection, of which only a small percentage have managed. AZA elephant standards have been mandatory for years. There is nothing voluntary about AZA elephant standards, except in the case where elephants may be difficult to socialize for various reasons. In these rare cases, for the sake of the animal (animals like elephants have different personalities within their species), the AZA might grant some exceptions towards managing animals by themselves, while acknowleging that they are social creatures by nature. Many people are actually claiming Jenny was mistreated at the Dallas Zoo because of some behavioral problems that were being managed several years ago when she was a solitary animal. Did anyone check the FOIA records where a specific veterinarian said the Dallas Zoo "should be commended" for their management of Jenny? That vet's name is Susan Mikota, the same primary vet who now works at the Elephant Sancutary. You can find those records on-line and her vet bio on their website.
As for protection under U.S. laws, there are multiple zoos in Canada that are AZA-accredited as well as two zoos in Mexico that are accredited. Believe it or not, there are places that care for animals within an entire country. It's a little appalling that people stereotype an entire country as not caring about animals. Yes, people are correct that there are some issues in certain areas of the country, but let's not bring Africam into that debate because not only are they one of about 30 institutions accredited by the Mexican asssociation of zoos, they are also one of two institutions in Mexico that are AZA-accredited and probably the wealthiest zoo in Mexico. People keep talking about USDA laws, but do they realize USDA inspects thousands of animal facilities in the United States each year, and they only visit each facility about once per year? AZA guidelines have been adopted in countries around the world and are recognized to be far tougher than USDA. Have zoos and sanctuaries been cited by USDA? Yes, and good for the USDA for helping to be a watchdog when necessary, but those violations in AZA-accredited zoos are a very small percentage at best. The Concerned Citizens debate has been viewed for some time, and it's great that there is respect for animals, provided its heartfelt and not because they are trying to close down places that have animals for people to learn about and for the benefit of conserving species. The points that have been made really aren't valid: A) There is a female elephant for companionship of Jenny, B) AZA is far more than a "trade" organization, and anyone can see that from their website www.aza.org, and their application may be voluntary if you feel you can pass the rigorous inspection, but their standards, especially with elephants are mandatory C) Jenny will have one of the bigger elephant exhibits in AZA-accredited zoos in the country, easily 10 times bigger than what she has had. D) AZA accreditation is mandatory, the Zoo still owns Jenny and is responsible for her overall care, AZA standards are more strict than USDA standards under the Animal Welfare Act, and just like it applies to the five AZA-accredited zoos in Canada, those mandatory standards will apply to the Africam zoo in Puebla. It's funny, the five zoos in Canada aren't protected under the Animal Welfare Act, but there doesn't seem to be a concern for their elephants. Let's stand together against animal abuse and people who don't care about wildlife, not work against these groups that are really trying to help. Even if you don't see the other side, we should agree that caring about animals is common ground, and there are many people who could care less about animals. Those individuals deserve our focus in my opinion.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Kellymac1 Anonymous

Salsa:

Show us the ISIS link that lists ALL the elephants that have ever lived and died at Africam please - and what they died from and their ages at death. This information would go a long way to give Africam credibility. What experience does Africam have working with and integrating a new herd of African elephants? Especially a difficult case like Jenny --- They only have Asians. This is a potentially dangerous situation for the keepers, staff, public and other elephants at Africam.

re: Canada vs. Mexico Different standards in these countries and everyone knows it. Elephants shouldn't be in northern climates so Canada has its own ele-problems to deal with. There aren't a lot of Canadians illegally crossing the border into the U.S. -- or, maybe you could let us know something about this that we don't.

But getting back to Jenny, sending this troubled elephant to a place where she will be subjected to cars, noise, fumes when she hasn't done well being in the zoo is not smart. Also, when her African elephant "companions" arrive they will undoubtedly be breeding them so will have to keep Jenny seperate - another blow for her. The zoo has provided us a picture of "Shanty" her potential companion (with no info about her health or background, only that she is young) which is another indication that Africam is not the right place for Jenny. We could not locate "Shanty" in any registry or studbook either. A young , African elephant is not a suitable choice of companion for her, per the Dallas Zoo's own records. Prior to bringing in the late Keke, the zoo's records stated, "It is felt that Jenny was able to easily intimidate her previous companions due to their age. The staff will seek a companion that has previously demonstrated confidence with other elephants and that is at least of the same age as Jenny." Why is the zoo doing something that is contrary to its own recommendations? Could it be because placing her in AZA approved zoo is more important that what is right and best for Jenny?

Because the AZA is calling the shots here they plan to ship her away to a noisy place with no guarantees that she will integrate well -- they're setting her up for failure.

You can defend the AZA all you want, but there is too much evidence to support the fact that the AZA does have the best interests in mind for elephants -- and -- it's clearly demonstrated by the fact that AZA’s minimum standards (which are already unacceptable for elephants) are not even enforced. 52% of AZA zoos do not meet AZA's own minimum space requirements and have received waivers. A number of zoos hold solitary elephants, even though that also contravenes AZA minimum standards (female elephants never live alone in the wild) and violates the cardinal rule of humane treatment, providing this most social animal appropriate companionship. Nevertheless, no AZA zoo has lost, much less risked its accreditation by holding an elephant in solitary confinement not to mention chaining them at night causing them huge stress and suffering. Other AZA zoo’s that have agreed to send some or all of their elephants to sanctuaries are the zoos in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Detroit, Philadelphia only to name a few. If these AZA zoos believed sanctuary was best for their elephants, what’s the matter with Hudson?

Respectfully yours,

Kelly, Sandy, Sally

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Salsa Anonymous

Kellymac1 comments: "Getting back to elephants. The Africam Safari Park does not list their elephants in any major zoological registry". First you say there are no Africam records on elephants (research your posts). Now someone finds the ISIS information you couldn't, and you basically just dismissed that finding. Now apparently you are changing your request to wanting more information? That's the yes, BUT approach. You claim that it is "potentially dangerous" to staff that they are working African elephants as opposed to Asian elephants. Zoo supporters have been taught what the term protected contact means. That means there is a barrier between humans and animals, and training occurs only if the animal chooses to participate. Please tell me what "illegal aliens crossing the border" has anything to do with this elephant or these zoos? Your comment obviously shows your bias towards Mexico. While I may not know details about her female African companion, I do know the information at the top of this website, that you are defending, claims Jenny would be isolated and wouldn't have a companion in the first place. You say you have a picture of her companion elephant that was sent to you, but at the very top of this web page it says "Jenny will be isolated". If you don't know anything about this elephant because you don't have records, how are you assuming the age or the size of this animal is not suitable? Africam will be much larger than her space at Dallas and it would seem to be far easier to adjust Jenny to other elephants as they won't be so close to each other. As for cars, we have been to the zoo when golf carts and other vehicles have driven by without the slightest issue for any of the animals, including elephants. Why have zoos sent their animals to a sanctuary? I'm guessing because each zoo is different. Please don't champion them as if they are now supporting animal rights groups. The same animal rights groups who applauded the decision by L.A. to send their elephant to a sanctuary, then turned around and are protesting them bringing back elephants into a new $$mega- million dollar facility. Even zoo supporters can figure that out.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

While I am no PETA fan or elephant expert, I must say this video is incredibly disturbing. I had no idea what the rocking was all about and forgive me if this was brought up earlier but according to wikipedia "rocking behavior", a rhythmic and repetitive swaying which is unreported in free ranging wild elephants. Thought to be symptomatic of stress disorders, rocking behavior may be a precursor to aggressive behavior in captive elephants."

Is it really worth it? Was it so vital to our life experience to have these poor creatures in the zoo or the circus? Disgusting!

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

qaggaz Anonymous

Mike: thanks for providing Angela's video. It really does add some food for thought to the debate and makes me proud to be one of Angela's constituents. I do find it interesting that I find no mention of this trip on Angela's blog. Has she actually claimed responsibility over on the Observer's blog? Is there any possibility that someone else posted this in her name?

Salsa: thanks for clearing up some of the misinformation that is floating around.

jtmbls: you ask if it is "vital to our life experience to have these poor creatures in the zoo" to which I answer it is vital to the elephants' life experience. Without zoos, we would not be exposed to these elephants, and they would most likely be headed for extinction. At least with zoos, as imperfect as they are, we do have a means to preserve the species and as we learn more about them, provide better environments for them to live and breed, while at the same time allowing us all to enjoy and learn from these animals.

Kellymac: (I am not sure if you are one person, or three, or perhaps one person with three personalities?) There is a difference between fact and opinion. Examples of facts stated in this case include: the amount of land available at the sanctuary in TN, the number of vets on site at various facilities, AZA accreditation of Africam, rocking of elephants observed at Africam, and so on. Opinions include the importance of space for elephants, whether elephants should be placed in zoos for public viewing, what "rocking behavior" means in elephants.

Arguments based on fact and logic are far more compelling than those based entirely on opinion and speculation (even if it is expert opinion) because facts can be proven or disproven. You undermine your own case if the "facts" you present end up being either false or mere opinion.

11 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

djphillips Anonymous

Please sign Jenny's online Care2Petition @

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/tell...

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

Kellymac - Has your group (I am assuming you're affiliated with the Concerned Citizens?) attempted to contact any national media organizations with this story?

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

12ozfred Anonymous

Man! This elephant issue is getting to the Elian Gonzalez level!

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

We need turn some Hollywood loose on these Dallas Zoo people...

11 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

Well, not exactly who I was thinking of but very gracious of Lily Tomlin just the same... http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws...

11 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

No mention of what her facilities will be like until 2011...

10 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )