Content from our friends over at Dallas Progress
Monday, June 9, 2008
DART should consider turnstiles at train stations
I rode the train in Washington DC with my lovely Mom. I always like riding the train in cities that I visit, so we took the Metrorail to the airport and grabbed a late lunch.
Riding DC's Metrorail was a breeze. I bought a day pass and off we went. When you ride the Metro, you put your ticket in the slot and it pops out the top of the turnstile (similar to MARTA in Atlanta). They also don't use bars for their turnstiles, but a two-piece contraption that makes in impossible to slide through without paying. If you hop, you're likely to be spotted by DC finest.
This is the cool part; you also run your card through to exit the train. The system knows how far you traveled and reduces your card accordingly (since it is a regional rail system and fares vary). It also is another protection against people hopping the train.
If your card has a set dollar value (vs. paying for one day), it will tell you how much money you have left on your pass.
Everybody that rides DART knows that sometimes they take your ticket on the train, and sometimes they don't. Here's a thought:
If DART is in a revenue shortfall, maybe they should consider banning the honor system and collect everyone's fare upfront. In all major cities in which I've traveled and used rail, no other city works on an honor system. In fact, the only system that I remember that worked on an honor system was in Rio de Janiero, Brazil. On the bus in Rio, you board the bus at the rear door and they actually had a guy in one of the seats with a cash register drawer that made change.
Turnstiles on DART trains would make sure that everybody pays and save DART the trouble of having to walk through the rail cars and take tickets. I realize that some stations would need some reconfiguring (Lancaster-Kiest, White Rock, etc.), but start with Mockingbird and a few others and see if the revenue starts to increase.
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That makes complete sense. I have often wondered if I am the only one who pays the $3 when I ride since I never see a DART cop and nobody ever takes tickets.
John McClelland Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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I think I saw a cop once, but he was dealing with some sort of hobo. And I always pay, just because I'm paranoid and because I support public transit.
Pavel Lishin Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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I always pay, too, mainly because I try to live with a basic set of morals, and if I can't be trusted to pay $3 for a train ticket, then what can I be trusted for? I'm a regular DART-er and I've been glad that I stick by those morals, as I've seen people get ticketed on multiple occasions by the DART police. The DART police can't be everywhere, but they're around more than you might think.
Alex Bentley Staff
1 year, 5 months ago
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I am not against turnstiles if it makes sense. However, the article above does not nearly paint the complete picture.
The argument for and against turnstiles is in great part an economic one. The revenue would not necessarily increase if you had turnstiles. Turnstiles, and their maintenance are very costly. By one mode of calculation, its possible the cost of installing and maintaining turnstiles greatly outweighs the extra revenue gained by adding them.
I ride DART to my downtown office and I drive there on average less than once every month. (i.e. I use it a heck of a lot.) I frequently encounter DART police asking for tickets. Does it happen every trip? No but I've encountered them as much as three times on one trip. Further, when they ask for tickets I often watch and see how many people don't have tickets. I'd say about half the time they go through and find nobody without a ticket. That indicates to me that the system generally works at least on the trip times and areas on my commute.
Andrew Laska Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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On the northbound Red Line train I rode Sunday morning, a DART cop walked through and checked everyone's tickets/passes. No one got a ticket for not paying, as far as I could tell. I've also seen them come through before. Not every time, of course, but frequently enough that it's not worth the risk, in my opinion. Besides that, it's a cheap ride.
monogodo Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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When April used to take the DART regularly, she would always pay, but on two (out of maybe 100) occasions, she hopped on the train without a ticket to avoid missing it -- her intention being to buy a ticket at a later stop. Both times she got caught by a cop and written a ticket. Suggests to me that there are more ticket checks than many might think.
Mike Orren Staff
1 year, 5 months ago
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Is checking tickets the primary role of the DART cops? How much would axing a given number of those offset installation and maintenance costs?
Scott Doyle Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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Having regularly used the NYC transit subways for years, I prefer the openess and honor system of Dallas' DART. But writing a ticket is useless. Most fare jumpers aren't about to show up in court. I say thow ticketless riders off the train. Literally, while it is moving.
bobdon000 Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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I think there's a difference between actual DART police (which are actual police officers with guns and such), and the people that hand out tickets. That's more of a job like someone that gives tickets for parking meters. I can't imagine laying off some of those would really recoup the cost of retrofitting all of those stations - that would be a huge cost.
James Scott Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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I think it would be hard to reconfigure the stations. Mockingbird and City Place would be easiest but any of the above ground stations would be hard. You'd have to build a fence or something around the whole stop.
Instead of a ticket it'd be better to publicly humiliate a person who tried to ride for free by announcing to the entire train that they didn't buy a ticket then make them get off at the next stop. Public humiliation is a good deterrent believe it or not.
FWIW whenever i've been on the train (TRE included) and they were checking tickets everyone had one so the honor system may be working.
chasd00 Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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Don't they make you get off the train regardless? I think that even without yelling "LOOK AT THE POOR PERSON" it's moderately public.
Pavel Lishin Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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Why not just have the driver check the tickets.
That would cost absolutely nothing.
Clay213 Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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Like most public transit systems, DART doesn't exist to make money; only the London Underground does that (and who wants to pay that much?). Revenue is ancillary to alleviated traffic and improved air quality. Additionally, the majority of DART light rail passengers are monthly pass holders, which is why you don't see them buying tickets for single trips. Installing and maintaining turnstiles would cost a great deal and would put passengers at a greater distance from the trains. While public transit is far from perfect in Dallas, adding turnstiles would lengthen trip times and increase hassle for the majority of people riding trains.
Catherine Cuellar Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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Increase hassle? Dudette, every major mass transit system in the country has some sort of turnstile or fare check system in place and most of them carry far more passengers than DART does.
It's more than doable.
xdavidwattsx Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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CC, Mike D's argument is that they're in a revenue shortfall. It's not about making money so much as staying solvent.
I'm with Dave (lol rock entity). If somewhere as congested as DC can use 'em efficiently, surely we can.
Scott Doyle Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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Technically a lot of business exist without "making money" and running in the red.
But considering DART's alleged budget shortfalls, I would say it is DART's duty to make money. Maybe not a profit. But at least break even.
John McClelland Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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Actually there are several major transportation systems all around the world that don't have turnstiles.
Again, it comes down to money. It may cost more to erect, operate and maintain them than is lost by having a system without them. What are the real estimated losses? If there is a sudden increase in scofflaws it might be easier and cheaper to add more cops (even if temporarily) than it is to erect massive structures.
Think of it this way. If the penalty is X times more than a daily fare, then if they catch about 1 out of X people then they have broken even. That is without adding in the cost of turnstiles throughout the system which would mean they would have to catch far less than one out of X people.
Again I am not against them. I simply haven't seen a completely formed argument.
FYI: Today, they checked on the second stop on the way home and it was standing room only. Everyone in our car everyone had a pass...
Andrew Laska Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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I can't begin to count the rail transit systems in North America, Europe and Australia I've ridden that work on the honor system. It's a LOT.
This would be a non-starter here and cost too much to reconfigure.
Billusa99 Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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I figure the info to be gained is worth something, too. Knowing travel habits, which stops get more congested and when, etc.
I'm not a regular on the trains...is there anything in place to obtain such info other than old-school manual headcount?
Scott Doyle Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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wow, always, always buy a ticket when I ride. because we do not have a great system here compared to other metropolitan areas, we will never get one if it never makes money! I am not saying turnstiles are a good idea, but maybe, an increased presence of Dart Cops (did I actually say that..;-(), and a more vigorous inspection system. Some stations like Cityplace and Mockingbird would be real easy to turnstile, but Downtown would be a nightmare!
James McFadyen Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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Uh, turnstiles? Really? To make up revenue shortfalls?
Like a BILLION?
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2008-01...
or about $7M here and there to appease the 'burbs?
http://www.lakeshoretimes.com/article...
Come on, DART's got bigger problems than a couple of people getting to a Mavs game for free.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfai...
DC Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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When I rode DART everyday to work I had a monthly pass. It was a nice bonus to be able to ride unlimited for the month.
Having a system that counted down how much you had on account would seem to me to just penalize the people who purchased the monthly passes and then used DART for more than just transportation to and from work.
Oh, and I think the last thing the system needs is fewer DART cops.
Scott Miller Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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Holy hell, from that lakeshoretimes.com article:
It's taken over a decade just to get an environmental assessment completed?
Anyhow, Mike D's simply brainstorming on one issue - he's not indicating this will magically lift DART's woes. If it's too costly to implement, so be it. Geeeeeeeeez
Scott Doyle Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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The point is that DART ranks a total FAIL. Instead of working to improve movement in Dallas, we're trying to encourage people to stay in the 'burbs and commute in and out of the city.
So, by blowing off revenues on capital expenditures out in town ABC, we're left with a local train system that's ok, but isn't really a practical means of getting around the city on a leisurely basis. It's not a 'metro' train.
Try this out: "let's grab the train down to the performing arts center..."
To suggest that putting up more infrastructure to make up the hundreds of millions of dollars mysteriously floating in the ether suggests a barely superficial appreciation of the topic. This is worse considering the large number of commuters with monthly passes or transfers that have to get checked when they hit the bus.
DC Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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That's not DART's fault, that's the city planner's fault. The people who plan cities and suburbs did so with respect to highways and roads, not future rail lines. Here we are decades later trying to put in a rail system into cities and burbs that were never designed for them. Is it any surprise it doesn't work that well?
xdavidwattsx Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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DC - not sure I understand your comment about "let's grab the train down to the performing arts center"...are you saying that's not possible? Granted, there's going to be a couple of blocks walk involved, but most of the downtown attractions - including the performing arts center - are within a relatively comfortable walking distance from the downtown rail. Even cities I've been to that had a much more extensive rail system required some walking to get to the major attractions.
Is this ever going to be Chicago, NY, DC? No - but given the circumstances, I think they're doing a decent job of connecting the dots. Are they doing it quickly or economically - that's a different argument - but you can't say it's a "total fail".
James Scott Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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The point is that other than when they open up the Victory station it is not common to see people getting ready to ride the DART as part of their recreational plans. Unless you're travelling on a regular schedule from some long distance, it just isn't convenient.
But who cares? With a billion or so dollar deficit and a board more interested in Rowlett and Plano than D what improvements are we going to see for people who actually live in Dallas? Probably none. There's your FAIL.
DC Anonymous
1 year, 5 months ago
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I guess it comes down to what you consider convenient - and what your definition is of "people who actually live in Dallas". I live very near White Rock Station and find it very convenient to take the train to downtown to visit: Old Red Museum, West End (Dallas World Aquarium, restaurants), DMA (which will soon include the new Arts District facilities). Also, catching a movie at the Angelika or the Magnolia is pretty easy - not to mention all the restaurants available that those locations. Throw in the McKinney Ave. Trolley and I've got a few more restaurants/bars/clubs to choose from. Next year, I'll be able to add Deep Ellum and Fair Park to the mix.
Is there walking involved? Yes. But again, I know I don't live in DC or Paris, so I don't expect it to be the same - and I've been to both of those places and there was still just as much walking involved as here.
Are there places that the rail doesn't get to? Of course - but I can either say it sucks and complain about it - or stop complaining and actually use it when it makes sense to use it. If more people did that, then maybe DART would see more value in adding additional infrastructure to the rail lines.
James Scott Verified
1 year, 5 months ago
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If I were in charge of things at DART, my first task would be to replace (or augment) the annoying paper-money feeders with credit/debit card swipers. For heaven's sake--nearly everyone posseses a debit card. I realize the bank gangsters take a cut of every electronic transaction; perhaps DART could get special dispensation for reduced royalties. Or perhaps allow riders to deposit a chunk and deduct as necessary (this would be for less-than-frequent or regular riders who purchase monthly passes, for example). I cannot stand to be stuck behind a poor soul struggling to feed a limp dollar bill into one of those stupid things as the train chugs away, ringing its bell. AND-I seem to remember that the selfsame dollar coins one gets in change cannot fit back into the coin slot.
el_buzz Anonymous
1 year, 4 months ago
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yo tht was tite!
hello Anonymous
1 year, 2 months ago
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