Rick Yost Verified

Alex- ...no words. You are Sooo right.

How many of these kind of stories do the faithful have to read before they turn their minds back on, realize something is wrong, and find the courage it takes to walk away from the church- Any church!?

At least re-assess things from a distance. Then, if after close scrutiny, you still believe you can handle your Pastors, Priests, and all the other authority figures you bow to doing such things, go back.

No, I'm not trying to turn the whole world into atheists. I'm just trying to get those who 'believe', to also 'think'.

Religion, humanity's Nemesis.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

Rick: I just read this story, which kind of highlighted just how much brainwashing goes on, and how difficult it is to break away from it, even if you want to.

I think at a certain point, people are so unable to think critically, they should just be treated like children, legally and otherwise.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Pavel- Sad but true. Some folks have become addicted to having someone else think for them.
Addictions are hard to overcome.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Tony Burks Verified

21 days to break or make a habit (or so I've heard)...wonder how long it takes to break or make an addiction, if there is such data..hmmm.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Holston Verified

I wish I had more time for this, but I'll just say, I don't think this tragedy has anything to do with your point. This man's actions are all too human and are the sorts of things all sorts of people do, Christian, Pagan, Atheist, Zen, etc. What about this situation has anything to do about whether Christianity is true or not? Why does it imply that Christians do not think for themselves?

I respect (I do) your right not to believe. I greatly respect people who question and are skeptics. I mostly a skeptic myself, although my Christian faith is quite firm in many ways. I have loads of questions, despite my Christian faith. I have examined it critically for many years. I have lots of questions, doubts, yet at the end of the day, I decide what I believe. I believe it to be a reasonable faith. While influenced by many books, teachers and pastors, at the end of the day (every day) I must decide on my own, which is what I do.

I realize you find my Christian faith ridiculous. Thankfully, we live in a country where you and I have freedom of conscience, to believe or not as we see fit. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I suppose my overall point is that this man, a religious leader, apparently engaged in reprehensible conduct does not in itself lead to any real conclusion about the value of the religion itself. I'm sure you disagree, but I wanted to at least make that point.

tone is difficult to read on these here interwebs, so I hope my comments don't come across as angry or sharp, as I do not intend them to be.

I enjoy debate and exchange, and don't intend any heat.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Lisa Lawrence Merritt Verified

Sex scandal at PBC?

All this from the same church that sometime back had laity going around to strip clubs, taking down license plate numbers of cars parked at the clubs and then systematically sending post cards to the residence assigned to those cars to inform whoever lived there that the car(s) had been spotted at an adult entertainment venue.

Go figure.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Bill- I respect your point of view, I am not attacking your faith. I don't mean to say that just because of this story, there is anything wrong with your faith, or the gentleman's in question.

What I AM saying is that, in my opinion, the multitudes of believers who join organized religions (apparently these folks don't feel they can be truly faithful individuals without the emboldened support of a group) give up the power to think for themselves, or interpret their doctrine for themselves.
And the authority figures they hand this power over to, (not all) but in many cases, aren't worthy of the believer's blind allegiance.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

Bill - I may not find your faith ridiculous, but I'd be surprised if you didn't agree that there are a lot of Christians - and religious folks of many faiths - who are pretty ridiculous.

Not that atheists are all a super-rational bunch, either. It seems to attract a lot of contrarians and people who love to argue for the sake of argument itself. Oh, college. You're amusing when you're not depressing.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

This sounds like a discussion for...FriendlyAthiest.com! And if that's not how you swing:

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Holston Verified

Thanks for the thoughtful responses Pavel and Rick. Yes, there are lots of parts of Christian sub culture I find ridiculous. I find that the church is full of people who are judgmental, hypocritical, and prone to argue. That can describe me at certain points.

Christianity is a communal religion. It is true in my view, that you are missing a part of Christian experience if you are not a part of a community. There are many reasons for this. One is that there is a value in corporate worship. There is also benefit in fulfilling the mission of the church in feeding the poor, welcoming the stranger. Then there is the benefit of learning from others. Not just the views of seminary trained pastor/teachers, but the views of other ordinary mortals.

The church of my youth did not encourage questions. That didn't stifle my own search for spiritual truths, and that quest continues. Thankfully, I've found a church, where questions, doubts, debates are welcomed and encouraged.

While there are Christians who seem to and probably do give up the right to think for themselves or interpret doctrine for themselves, that doesn't describe me I don't think. I meet weekly with a small group of men. We study, debate and discuss our views of spiritual things. I don't think it describes any of us either.

Again, I understand and respect that you do not believe. I absolutely understand that skepticism. I also agree that a lot of harm in history has happened at the hands of 'believers' of various stripes. Still, the quest for spiritual truth and yes the support of a community as we go through life are worthy and valuable things in my experience. I've found the same thing in the Dallas music and arts community btw, to bring this discussion back to this here community.

best wishes,

bill

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I'm shocked that you don't find http://FriendlyAtheist.com and a giraffe chasing what I think was a duck (can't see the pic at work) thoughtful, Bill. Why have you forsaken Mr. Giraffe and I?

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Ya know, I usually jump on the "That Hypocrite" bandwagon, but you do hafta ask:

What if these folks didn't have a monkey of piety on their shoulder all the time? What kind of trouble would they be in without it?

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Joel Woiton Verified

Look, I am no fan of the Prestonwood Baptist Church, but this incident is not their fault. PBC is a large church of human beings. This can happen to employees of any institution, it just more likely at a large institution. I'm more shocked at what little compassion the PBC had for this man. Instead of saying the man has a problem and needs help, they called him evil and banished him from their Garden of Eden.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Holston Verified

I apologize Scott. I mean no disrespect to Giraffes. I have always found them to be fascinating. I confess I was unaware of their interests in spiritual things, another example of my own intellectual limitations.

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Jason Rice- I'm not quite sure I understand your question. Is this one of those 'if they didn't have religion they'd all be out in the streets raping and killing everyone in sight' kinda things? If it is, I disagree.

Joel Woiton- I think they're saying he does have a problem- a problem that scripture can't help with.
Hey, if it were a catholic church, the community might never have known about it.

Bill Hoslton- "...there is a value in corporate worship." Could you explain that so someone as simple as myself can understand it?

2 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Holston Verified

I think it's akin to the difference between a solo singer songwriter and a chorus. There is value in a community in sharing its joint recognition of the Creator. When voices join together in song, it's a work of art. We each see a reflection of G-d in the person next to us. It's certainly true that worship and prayer can take place in solitude, and in many ways I prefer that, but I enjoy the experience of worshiping with others, even others I don't know at all.

Far from simple Rick, yet a simple question is not so simple to answer often. Hope that's clear.

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

"Gullible" is written on your ceiling, cc.

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Bill- I see. Perhaps it's just an unfortunately structured phrase. It begs for scrutiny.

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Robert Kelly Verified

I think Lisa Merritt's comment above says to me that if there is a God, he has an awesome sense of humor.

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Lisa Lawrence Merritt Verified

Of course God has a sense of humor!!!

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Well, if you're gonna be unforgiven...might as well have a little fun!

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Rick - sorry tuned out due to "Day Job" stresses.

Nah, nothing so mellodramatic. I just fear that when anything like this crops up, whole institutions, even the idea of a larger purpose, gets tarred with the brush.

Ironic that my sarcasm bends the statement exactly and precisely so. Hmm. Good catch, Rick. Mea Culpa.

Note to self: If it needs emoticons, drop it.

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Kay- I agree. Funny how that double standard thing works eh?

1 month, 4 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Holston Verified

Kay and Rick, I think there's much truth in this. I think these points invite clarification about what should characterize leadership in the Christian community. A Christian leader should be a servant leader. A leader should take the example of Yeshua (Jesus' Hebrew name, which I prefer to use), who led by serving others. Yes, he was a teacher, but He often placed himself among the lowest and most oppressed parts of culture and served those people.And He called his followers to follow that example. If we Christians did that and really paid attention to the actual words of Yeshua, then we'd be a lot better off. A Christian leader should not be the one looking down on others.

I think people of all persuasions are guilty of blind obedience to people, who always disappoint and fall short. This is why it's a mistake to put your trust and confidence in a man. (just ask my wife)

1 month, 3 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Bill Holston Verified

Yeshua was hardest on the religous community. He said a couple of things that I think bear quoting: Matthew 7 Judging Others 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

As to spirituality and religion. Tricky words. I wish I had a cold shiner for everytime I've heard, 'I'm not religious, but I'm a spiritual person.'

I think these terms need definition to have any real meaning. Even though I'm very active in a church and therefore an organized religion, I don't much like the term religious. I'm not sure I like any of these terms any more, like Christian or Evangelical. They have so many secondary meanings that I don't think identify my faith. I hope I'm known as a follower of Yeshua. It's what I aim for anyway.

Hope you have a great weekend.

thanks for the thoughtful responses.

1 month, 3 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

Only sleep unto other 13 year olds if you want to be slept with when you're 13? What?

1 month, 3 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

Oh, right. I guess I got bored by that point.

1 month, 3 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )