Sunday, October 19, 2008

UNT students voted to help pay for new stadium

Comments (35)

The University of North Texas wanted to dip into student's pockets to help pay for a new stadium, so they went the democratic route and let the students vote on the referendum. After a 14% turnout, the students voted to pass the referendum and help pay for the stadium. The new fees will be incurred in 2011 after the completion of the new stadium.

Posted by Laura S.

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Colleges & Universities > University of North Texas

Comments

Jerry Leeper Verified

Students all over Texas are complaining about exorbitant tuition at state universities, and now UNT students vote themselves a ~5% (the fee structure at UNT isn't exactly straightforward) increase in fees just for a football stadium. Since the students are being so generous, maybe the state legislature should cut about 5% funding from UNT and give that money to a school where people want to get an education.

I always knew that UNT didn't attract the brightest and most gifted of students, but $30 per class for a football stadium? Da...

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

I remember someone saying that the fees wouldn't begin to be collected until well after current students have graduated. So they didn't vote themselves a 5% increase - they voted an increase for all the chumps who come after them.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Shameful. Absolutely shameful. As an alumni, I hang my head upon receiving this news.

I certainly won't be donating anymore funding to the university, to be perfectly candid. Individual programs...maybe. I'd sooner pay a small scholarship to a student in need than allow UNT to handle anymore of my money.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

What happend to the lab band, when I went there, it was a mucic school...oh well..roll your dice as we change...Alex Troup,....... Home on the Range.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

Yep AT -- The only thing I remember ever hearing about a college growing up was the jazz studies at North Texas. Frankly, the football thing I just assumed died out after you left high school... but now...

Yeah, it's all about that one irrellevant thing. So tell me, how many of these kids "studying football" can actually make a living at it?

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

AT, The One O'Clock Lab Band is alive and kicking quite well. Internationally known, these days...touring all over the world. They still stop in for a UNT performance once in awhile, I saw them 3 times as a student (thanks to the Honors Program, once was front row and center - very awesome).

FYI staffers, the link on their page is outdated - now it's http://www.jazz.unt.edu/?q=node/303

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Alex Bentley Staff

Thanks, Scott -- I've updated it.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

Now were are talking turkey, I have room for culture, and jazz, what was that sports guys name, give me a break.........gee lets tell the jazz poems of Northern Texas, Lenorard Bredden and Stan Kenton.....until then ...Alex Troup. jazz, soul...

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Lisa Lawrence Merritt Verified

UNT's College of Music is internationally recognized as one of the best in the world and not just for jazz, but yes, the jazz program is also one of the best.

I studied music at UNT and and can tell ya the school was never known for football.

~sigh~

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

As i said and felt the same way with the old farm town from the 1840s...A.T,...H.2.O

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

legend500 Anonymous

UNT finally matches some other schools with a fee which, at $10, is half of what Texas State charges and hundreds of dollars less a semester than UNT's closest match - Houston. Good news!

Of the four football-playing universities in the Denton - Waco area, only two are rated as extensive research universities. Are the other two getting noticed because of their chess teams? No. How about their football history? Yes. Sports = Reputation.

jleeper: Texas universities remain one of the best deals in the nation. Private universities with less facilities and programs charge up to $30,000 - and the state has to make up for that somewhere. Since Texans won't pay any more taxes, the money has to come from students. Want to pay less for state tuition? Tell your parents to pay higher taxes, or go to a non-system school (the nearest one is TWU in Denton) Finally, by your logic, Texas & SMU, with the highest athletic fees in the state, must also be the worst universities.

music friends: The music program is strong, but being the best music school in the state and in the top nationally hasn't done much for its identity. The stadium will in a state where football is king. Plus, an opera house will be built on part of the land regained by Fout's implosion. Win-win.

pavel: That's correct. Incoming students may choose where they go - it's an open market.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

legend, is a new stadium that people visit half a dozen days a year more important than everyday experience on campus? UNT has done fine without a sports rep - enrollment has been outpacing itself at record levels year to year without people worrying about how purdy the stadium is that their terrible team loses in.

Believe me, pissed me off pretty well that UNT didn't even have an NCAA baseball team (while having a softball team). But it didn't stop me from attending. Do you really think a new stadium is going to make significantly more people head out to see a terrible team?

As stated in threads past, we went to 3 bowl games the 4 years I attended and were lucky to half fill Fout's even in that 3rd bowl-year. If winning alone doesn't do it, new stadium won't help matters either.

Doesn't matter what other universities are spending on athletics. You're there for an education. This was a very poor decision by the students.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

::but being the best music school in the state and in the top nationally hasn't done much for its identity

Spoken like a true business major.

I personally can list maybe three mascots for colleges in America, but I can tell you where Lyle Mays bought his first Oberheim - oh and where Ravi Shankar's daughter did a little stint. I used to devour the Computer Music Journal articles and it seemed NTU popped up nearly every other issue with something from the CEMI.

Wouldn't it be nice to be #1 at something special rather than #387 at something banal? Wrong question, eh?

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Howard Wen Verified

It's the whole "build, baby, build" mentality characteristic of Dallas that has now infected UNT. (Or to put this thinking in another way, it's "if you build it -- no matter how much it costs, they will come.")

Thing is, building a better stadium isn't going to directly build a better team. That takes a good coach and coaching staff. Start from there, win lots of games, build a rep over the years, then talk about a new stadium if the crowds start to fill to capacity. It would cost a whole lot less to pay more for better coaches.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

alexander troup Verified

HOWARD YOUR THOUGHTS are very in cue, but what can any of US... do about this, mushroom people from planet Mars.....ants have bigger problems then humans when winter shows up......A.T. Building a future on Sand Castles.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

legend500 Anonymous

To answer my own question, the Extensive Research Universities in the area are UNT, UTD, UTA and Baylor. (Carnegie Foundation) But if you asked anyone on the streets what they were, you would probably get SMU, TCU, Baylor and maybe UNT. Football trumps academics in reputation.

A new stadium is a commitment that other schools notice. UNT was on the shortlist to join the CUSA after the third bowl - but UTEP got picked solely on facilities. Plus, better facilities brings better competitors to Denton. Air Force backed out of a 2009 game because of Fouts, Baylor cancelled for the same reason, and Kansas State as agreed to a home & home if we have a new stadium. Look at SMU - they don't sell out because of their team, they sell out because of their visiting teams. That's free money for the university.

Scott & Howard: The stadium is an intregal part of the campus experience. While I was there, I never set foot in the administration building, (as is probably the case with most students), but I don't suggest that it shouldn't be maintained just because almost nobody uses it. However, most students often use the Rec Center which was passed by a similar election and has been a roaring success when its predecessor was rarely used. These investments in facilities paid off.

No, nobody will come to sports events because of a new facility. The Rangers' doubling in attendance in 1994 was not due to a new stadium, but due to the enthusiasm for a 54-64 team. Sheesh.

Maybe the reason we can't fill Fouts right now is because it's a crappy stadium? That would be a good reason why attendance didn't go up too much during the good years.

As you say, enrollment is still shooting upwards even though tuition has gone from 1,400 when I wnt there to 6,000 today. Another $150 should have no effect. However, be of good cheer! After paying for the stadium (should take about 4 years) the fee will be used for the new baseball stadium!

Jason: Poli-Sci, actually. Right now, I'm attending the second-oldest law school in the state with Supreme Court justices as staff and Senators as almuni. I'm sure you can name that school off the top of your head, knowing its reputation exclusive of it's football history.

Unlike a private university, public universities have the resources to be good at more than 1 thing at a time. UNT can be #1 in music nationally, #1 in Political Science in the state (both of which may be true currently) and #30 in football all at the same time. The money comes out of totally different pots. They are not mutually exclusive. Plus, the music department has a new Opera House out of the deal - that will improve it's reputation just as much as the new stadium will improve football's.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Free money? Do you think about these things before you say them?

Anyways, maintaining something is entirely different than blaming it for your problems and spending millions on a new one. Fouts could easily be renovated for much less than $60 million.

Hate to break it to you, but I doubt Air Force and Kansas State would bring in a considerable amount of fans. Increase for Baylor would be attributed to the regional proximity more than anything.

The money comes out of totally different pots.

Pots funded by students, which should be used in their best interest. And this "free money" raised from theoretical heightened attendance certainly won't hit any other pots aside from athletics. Again, how will this benefit students more than something affecting them all year long...rather than every other Saturday during fall?

Comparing a regional university (who's put up a goose egg in the win column after 7 games) to a professional baseball team is laughable. Look at the RoughRiders in Frisco...everytime I've been, aside from when they played said Rangers, the place wasn't even half full and they've got one of the nicest parks in AA ball.

Fouts didn't fill up even when they were winning because it's simply not a competitive program against schools known for football...as indicated everytime OU and UT absolutely own the Mean Green. Not sure why you're wasting your text anyhow - you've got the stadium that will apparently solve all your problems in the works.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

legend500 Anonymous

Little bit of anger in your post. Bit of a pity party?

We all agree that Athletics = reputation. So it's obvious that a better reputation helps students both while they are at UNT and afterward. Thus the fee directly helps students - more than just a few times a year (although anything that helps students is good, even if it's a few times a year.)

Free money - the stadium will be paid off relatively quickly. Any money earned after that is "free". Simple.

Fouts is probably too old to renovate without completely rebuilding it as a new stadium anyway - and the expansion of the 35E/35W interchange might make that point moot. Plus, that would eliminate the additional parking and the opera house - both of which will replace Fouts.

Navy got within 500 of a sellout at Fouts and Kansas sold out at Ford. Baylor may be a regional team, but they still sell out stadiums, and will only come back and help us fill ours if we have a new one. My point, exactly. Kansas State & Air Force may very well sell out Fouts - version 2.

I wasn't comparing teams, I was comparing the effect of building a new sports facility. In that, the Rangers situation is directly comparable. How would Frisco's attendance be if they had not built a new stadium?

Schools known for football- Agreed, playing lesser-known teams is part of the problem. As stated above, and by my CUSA example, we can solve that with a new stadium. We own Tennessee and Texas Tech, historically. Does that mean that those are not "schools known for football?"

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I'm more upset with the current student body than anything.

Quality athletics = reputation. New stadium does not mean the team will perform. And UNT clearly doesn't need any help recruiting, as indicated by record enrollment year after year (sounding like a broken record yourself is apparently key in communicating this).

I guess it's simple to consider things free when someone else is paying for them. Are there going to be any reductions in the athletic fee if this "free" money starts pouring in? Highly doubtful. If anything, that fee will continue to increase.

Fans compare teams. If UNT can't hold its own against programs renowned for football, they themselves will not become renowned for football. They've got more students than they know what to do with as it is, and current students certainly did not sign up for this year's team or recent ones.

You're weighing quite a bit of "if's" on this stadium. Call dissenters crazy, but football shouldn't be a priority while there are noticeable problems on campus and the team's house certainly isn't the reason they're not performing. To think, O-fer against schools who are willing to play at Fouts...what are you getting yourselves into?

Should be interesting!

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

tx_dem41 Anonymous

"We all agree that Athletics = reputation."

We do? When did this happen?

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Matt Anderson Verified

Baylor may be a regional team, but they still sell out stadiums

Well, not so much. Whenever Floyd Casey sells out, there is more burnt orange or maroon in the stands than green & gold.

I give up -- what's the second-oldest law school in Texas?

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

legend500 Anonymous

Scott: I am paying for the stadium. I consider the benefits to outweigh the cost. Hence, it's free money to me. The fee should continue to increase until it matches our most similar university in-state. If people dislike it, then a) if they are students , they may leave to a school with lower athletics fees (the closest is North Central Texas College in Corinth); b) If alumni, they can donate more money to offset the hike, or stop giving whatever paltry amount they currently are; c) If the general public, they can live with it, as they have no part in this. Easy.

Quality athletics = reputation, yes. But if victory doesn't do it (as you noted), facilities don't do it (as you allege), and recruiting and staff don't do it (the logical result of poor facilities and a lack of victory), then tell schools like Vanderbilt (renovated stadium 2004), Louisville (built 1997, expansion done in 2011), Utah (built 1998), Wake Forest (expanded 2008), and Texas (expanded 2008) that they wasted their money. Let's talk about football programs which were fiscally responsible and didn't invest in facilities. Talk to the football coaches at Texas - Arlington or at Sun Bowl winning Pacific to see what happened to those programs, and to their schools. Don't know where Pacific is? I thought their academic reputation alone was sufficient?

What ifs am I weighing here? When the stadium is built, the better teams that have committed to come will lead to higher attendance. That's all certain. No ifs. Unless you think Kansas State will draw less people than Western Kentucky.

UNT has plenty of needs on campus, but athletic money doesn't subtract from academic money - under state law, they're entirely separate (tax dollars/state money cannot pay for athletics). If you're so gung-ho to spend money on UNT's problems, why not go up there and suggest a $100/hr "Campus Improvement" fee?

Matt: I'm all for being outnumbered at our own stadium. It can suck though, I remember our home game last year at SMU.

St. Mary's is the second oldest in Texas.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

tx_dem41 - Man, we stepped out of the room for one second and they vote while we're gone.

Legend - you did the impossible, found the one field I feel drains the economy more than sports.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Matt Anderson Verified

Think you're wrong on St. Mary's. Baylor Law School was founded in 1857; U. of Texas Law School was founded in 1883. St. Mary's Law School claims to be the successor of the San Antonio School of Law, which was founded in 1927.

St. Mary's University -- but not the law school -- claims to 1852, a few years after Baylor's founding in 1845 by the Republic of Texas. So it may be the second oldest University (which I haven't checked), but it doesn't appear to have the second-oldest law school, by 44 years or so.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

legend, you're running in circles. First it's building a rep, then it's being okay with opposing fans outnumbering us...and all in the same breath you're telling people to go elsewhere if they're not on board. Not to mention, I imagine it's going to take a helluva long time to recoup the $30 million of student money dropped on this deal. Christ.

Whole point is that UNT football has traditionally sucked hardcore and they've had no issues recruiting students regardless. Sure, they won when I was there...but it was only against Sun Belt teams. Bringing in higher profile teams to lose to won't help much of anything...and until UNT can compete with programs who have long-standing reps as strong football schools, this is pointless.

Need I again mention this was not a move to enable enrollment (already exceeding record #'s, blah blah blah)? That has nothing to do with the athletic program looking out for ol' numero uno (as stated previously, can't necessarily blame them for that...even though students should still be their priority).

UNT has plenty of needs on campus, but athletic money doesn't subtract from academic money...

I've decided that responding to this is an absolute waste of time. In fact, why I've bothered to this extent is beyond me. Hope you bathe in your free money for years to come.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Olson Verified

The nature of the average student at a school guides attendance more than anything. If the students don't care, nothing matters. Something tells me most students at UNT don't care about foosball or other sports and new stadiums won't really help that. Sure you could attract a few more high profile opponents with a new stadium so you can have their fans sell it out. And it'll sell out the first year or so because people like new, shiny things, but it'll probably fall back to the way things were. At all those other schools, the students care about sports. Not so much at UNT.

On a side note, the athletics=reputation argument is stupid. Schools with big programs are well known because of extra media coverage of games. Other schools are well known because of the school as an academic institution, which is more important. Obviously the increasing enrollment is because of UNT as a place of learning because they have a good reputation in certain fields. Succeeding in sports certainly gets you exposure, but a school can have a very solid rep where it matters regardless of their football team. Ivy League anyone?

Students pick schools because of the school, and if they don't care about sports, then their money shouldn't be spent on them. Ultimately, it's their own fault for not voting.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

Only 14% of the student body voted. So 86% didn't care enough to drop a ballot in the box. Or was student awareness a little low on this issue?

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

This definitely drives home the danger of apathy in a "democratic" situation. In this case, only 8% (1 in 12) of the students levied a multimillion dollar tax on everyone so they can have better tailgate parties.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

And, yes the irony of that coming from the persistent "Vote Snoopy" corner is not easily lost.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Voters aren't paying for it either way unless they're a freshman or plan on being 5th+ year seniors (or both). Gotta keep in mind this fee won't be instated until the stadium is complete, likely fall of 2011.

Had this gone into effect immediately in the spring, students would have made the effort to vote it down. Methinks it's regulation that the fee can't be charged until the stadium is complete, which makes me wonder where in the world the student half is being financed in the interim given current economic conditions.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Jason Rice Verified

So in almost every way, it mirrors our current economic bailout. Genius.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Spigener Verified

I can say first-hand that if the students weren't aware of the vote, they were walking around with blinders on. Even if they don't read the NT Daily (which had several articles on the vote, and even went as far as to oppose the measure), there were signs posted all around campus.

The whole thing is a $60 million gamble that a new stadium will bring in better players, which in turn (they argue) will get UNT more press, which will lead to degrees that are more valuable (since everyone in the country will be talking about our awesome football team).

What's done is done.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Being aware of something and acting on it are entirely different, Todd. I'm sure more than half of students saw posters...voting means effort.

Considering I'm not paying for the stadium and I won't be among those getting hosed while more important things go without funding, I concur with your sentiment that What's done is done. However, people should understand exactly what's happened here and hopefully future students will make more intelligent choices when allocating funds.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Todd Spigener Verified

I guess I should have mentioned that I was responding to jtmbls's question about student awareness in my last post.

I'm not too optimistic that a lesson will be learned from this vote. 4 years down the road, who's going to remember that it happened? There'll be a fresh group of faces (and wallets?).

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

I promise that I won't remember this next week.

1 year ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

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