Content from our friends over at Dallas Progress
Thursday, January 29, 2009
Victory Park: They finally caught up
I have seen no less than three articles in the last month killing Victory Park. Funny thing, I was writing the same thing two years ago; so were others. Gary Cohen of PegasusNews and I both wrote pieces on this exact subject in March 2007 (although I wasn't as prescient as Gary to correctly predict the demise of some of the tenants). Cary Darling of the Fort-Worth Star-Telegram had a similar piece in April of that year. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the piece I wrote:
Victory would be smarter to put some reasonably priced choices in that area. Then what you would have (along with the occasional high-rollers) is a consistent client base that would bring a family down to Victory, and then the husband and wife could splurge with a night on the town sans kiddos from time to time. That's a client base.
I could be wrong, and I bet this area continues to flourish in some capacity (read: for someone other than the developers). But it may ensure a quality earnings stream by showing a kind nod to the not-so-rich.
Victory is an easy target, but none of these articles break any new ground compared to what was written in early 2007.
On an up note, there are some good things on the horizon from a City budget standpoint. At the end of 2012, the Sports Arena TIF (the real name for the Victory Park TIF) expires and that tax money will flow into the city's general coffers instead of recirculating in the Victory area. That's big.
The current real estate market is tough, so I doubt that we will see much new construction in the near future. The units at Cirque are a little pricey ($1,600 for 700 SF to $2,800 and up for a penthouse) and the Vista starts at $1,100 for 670 SF. Cirque has some of the hottest looking rental units in the city. If you know anything about real estate development, new units with hot views cost money. You can't live in it for cheap; that's life.
But wouldn't it be cool to get some more moderately-priced housing options in that area? Jefferson at the North End always seems to be pretty leased up ($800 for a 1br to $1,500 for a huge 1,700 SF 2-bedroom). I remember almost moving to the North End when I first got to Dallas, but I couldn't operate a home office and be close to that much ongoing construction (the W was just getting started at the time).
I looked at a unit in the Terrace (the mid-rise, for-sale condo building), and while it had a great view it was pretty straightforward. Still, there's not many new units in the city that you can get for around $200K. The Terrace has several of them.
I will say once again what I said two years ago: once more companies office in Victory, and as more moderately-priced food and shopping options come online the area will rebound. Oddly enough, the Chili's at AAC is often packed.
Victory Park is a beautiful district, and the city will need multiple types of districts to thrive in the future. One example is the Design District in which more housing units are being built as we speak on the other side of I-35.
It's also not just about Victory Park being new and built from scratch, compared to an existing neighborhood like Knox-Henderson. That's being shortsighted. It's about creating the events that make people want to hang out when there's nothing else going on. The Nasher Sculpture Center is also considered to be a great piece of modern architecture like Victory and not "organic," but whenever they have movie night during the summer or host their "Target First Saturdays" the place is packed with families.
The area will always hold a special place for me because of the fun I had there a few months back, and from being a season ticket holder for a while. Remember back when you could park at a meter a block from AAC and hit the game? Oh the memories!
I want Victory Park to succeed, and I'm sure many others feel the same way. In terms of long-term viability, Victory Park is far from dead. All things in time.
Pegasus News content partner - Dallas Progress
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Andrew Laska says:
Can you link to these "three articles in the last month killing Victory Park?" I don't see links in your piece.
Verified
9 months, 4 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Gwen DuVal says:
This is one
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2009-01...
Staff
9 months, 4 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Clay213 says:
Can't kill something that was never alive to begin with.
Arena and stadium developments are a huge lie that have been built on the public dollar for decades now. None of the promises ever come true, and yet cities keep falling for the con.
Anonymous
9 months, 4 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
CitizenKane says:
Among other things, VP needs to bring homeownership into the picture. Right now, the place has too much of a "just passing through" feel.
Anonymous
9 months, 4 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Michael Davis says:
I don't link to the site Gwen linked to. I find most of the writers sans Robert W to be frauds and liars.
Verified
9 months, 4 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Clay213 says:
Oh you mean you don't link to it since they ran a column calling you a racist?
Anonymous
9 months, 4 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
JW Richard says:
Actually, the article Dallas Observer article Gwen linked to is pretty good.
Verified
9 months, 4 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Michael Davis says:
Clay: that might be part of it, but it's their consistency of lying and writing slanted pieces over an extended period of time. You know, fool me once...
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Lisa Lawrence Merritt says:
Let's face it, the developer got the demographic wrong. The Thirty thousand Dollar Milionaire set couldn't afford the W condos but the shopping was targeted toward them.
The people who chould afford the W units had no interest in the retail that was put in Victory. (Actually older and less "hip.")
The cluster of over-priced dining didn't work either. However, more affordable places have moved in.
Btw, does anyone actually buy Noka chocolate? That concept just blows me away. High end chocolate(whatever that is) in very expensive store front with very little product. Desi better 'splain to Lucy!
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
CitizenKane says:
The DO article by Matt Pulle is a very well thought out and presented piece journalism. He has some good quotes, talked to alot of people, and is very even balanced. In addition, I think his story line pulls in all the viewpoints on VP.
I enjoyed reading it and would like to see him cover urban issues even more and in greater length.
Anonymous
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush says:
Once again, Dallas looks like the child with ADD. When the toy breaks, he moves on to another one. We never seem to have a unified plan. Our gathering areas are like connect the dots. The West End went to hell in a hand basket. Revitalizing downtown has been a half-hearted effort to say the least. Deep Ellum sucks really bad. Exposition Park is dead as a door nail. Uptown is douchery at its finest. We don't seem to have a place where everyone can enjoy themselves, you know, like in the big city? Let's face it, we have no city center. Just a hodge podge of building projects that have no connection, because they were never part of a central plan.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Andrew Laska says:
Travis,
Almost no American cities developed with a central plan. None I know of did so after WWII.
I think you are hitting on some truths but also you are doing the proverbial mixing of apples and oranges.
Many of the areas you cite were never intended to be part of planned development of places and they sprung up spontaneously. There was certainly some later latching on to those places by the powers that are but much of that was mid-stream.
You say, "We don't seem to have a place where everyone can enjoy themselves, you know, like in the big city?" Most American large cities lack such a place. Dallas is hardly special. (and by Dallas I do not mean only Dallas proper but the surrounding area as well.)
These kinds of urban growing pains are hardly special to Dallas and the Dallas area. When one looks back at mistakes of other urban areas in decades past, then Dallas can be seen as improving and gaining a more mature outlook. It can also be seen at trying to learn from past errors of others. Is it perfect? No, but such problems are never solved with perfection.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice says:
::lying and writing slanted pieces
I'm with Michael.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
jtmbls says:
Is nobody else really, really excited about the Performing Arts Center that is being built and is intending to fill the void Travis speaks of? I don't hear nearly as much buzz about the project as I expected and two of its main buildings are scheduled to be completed this fall.
Anonymous
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
CitizenKane says:
There is most definetly a trend developing in unififying the different districts of the downtown area. I think the future projects (esplande crossing Woodall Rodgers, Trinity River, Performing Arts District, downtown housing, DART rail expansions, expansion/improvemements to Farmer's Market) are all signs that the CBD is evolving into somthing great. It just doesn't happen overnight.
My only regret is that the worst mayor in Dallas history (Steve Bartlett) didn't get the Rangers to move into a downtown ballpark.
Anonymous
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Woody Rosen says:
That's kinda what I think happens when you try to "buy" culture.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush says:
"My only regret is that the worst mayor in Dallas history (Steve Bartlett) didn't get the Rangers to move into a downtown ballpark."
You forgot about Laura screwing us on the Cowboys' new stadium...
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Clay213 says:
Hah
Hah
HAH
Downtown ballpark? Worst idea ever. Besides maybe a downtown football stadium.
Anonymous
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup says:
Travis, your 21 hour comment has the very essence of my eyeballs, then again this is a Sity with Syndmore Developeridis,a lot of spoiled childern on the loose from the bank, kind of brutish and vacid...."THIS IS MY TOY HOUSE"....always has been that way,
Even John Neely Bryan was accused of having too many hotels before you crossed the Trinity in 1849....beside i dug a lot of great garbage out of that area,, and it proves, how spoiled Dallas came to exist... oh well, times will change...want to go to the ball game...A/T, Sudden realization, I am a Subconscious observer.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
CitizenKane says:
CK had no interest in having the Cowboys in a downtown, city financed arena, in which the C boys only played a dozen home games a year at.
Anonymous
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup says:
Having the Cowboys downtown,.... would of been great,it was for a lot of folks in the late 1960's, when you had Hippies you also had Jocks who could afford to go out and Drink and eat... and the invention of the credit card, while Casa Domengiuz, that was the real Dallas Sport scene on Cedar Springs, then everything went West, D.F.W, The Cowboys and the feeling, too spread out and it got big,... quick or detached or lost.....A/T, Sorry I did not represent the masses..From Manasses.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Clay213 says:
Not paying for the stadium is about the only good decision the Dallas government has made.
Downtown stadium = more of a ghost town than downtown is now.
Anonymous
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup says:
Inner city manpulations have not gone good for inner city developers these past 7 years in many places in the U.S.A, Why.....smell the roses, their is none...or the coffee, the suburban life is the place to be....
With cars and gas and safe isolation in ones house or deck of cards....all of that will change and has to, we are a 21st Century and by GOD's.... hands or even the abuse of mans, can affect any Billionare...
Dallas, I was born here and I will escape, only to say this.... "So what to your inmature ego to get me to hang out at your crummy over priced sports box"...go clean up your bed room..mine is done...A/.T, FEED UP WITH Dallas, and in love at the same time
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush says:
"Downtown stadium = more of a ghost town than downtown is now."
Please explain that..
And as far as other cities not having a central plan, I can name several cities that have great downtowns. Baltimore and Salt Lake come to mind, and Denver is another. Anybody want to explain why Dallas can't be similar, except for thoughtless development?
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice says:
::Salt Lake
Trav - not to go treading into religion here... but that is all the work of the church up there.
Did I love having a simple cartesian grid to learn instead of 50,006 local celebrities and twenty three digit numbers? Hell yeah! But it wasn't a "make it a fun place to live" decision. It was a "make it impossible to not find the church at State and Main (0,0) of any city in the state" decision.
"The Plan" was only possible in the absence of competing interests.
But, dang, I do miss the nice downtown. <sigh>
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush says:
Well, I was there in the summer several times. I can only comment on my times there, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Even if the hippie girls hadn't EVER shaved since birth.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Mike Hathaway says:
Laura Miller didn't "lose" anything for us on that deal. It's pretty apparent when you read between the lines that Jerry Jones never had any intention of coming back to Dallas.
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9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Andrew Laska says:
"And as far as other cities not having a central plan, I can name several cities that have great downtowns. Baltimore and Salt Lake come to mind, and Denver is another. Anybody want to explain why Dallas can't be similar, except for thoughtless development?"
Having a great downtown is not at all the same as having a central plan.
Baltimore did not develop with a central plan and nor did Denver. Sure it's true since the 70s powers have focused on Baltimore's downtown degradation. Same is true with Denver. However, that's a response to urban development trends that degraded centers of American cities. and I don't think its fair to call it a "central plan" in the same sense i would use. Washington, D.C. developed with a central plan, for example.
What did they do in Baltimore? They added a convention center. They developed their waterfront. They did get sports downtown but its one of the few cities that has geography and property to pull that off like they did. In fact, if you look at Baltimore's rise against its downtown blight many of the efforts seem to parallel what Dallas is trying to do.
What is Dallas doing? They are developing a waterfront (trinity), sports are downtown (AAC), arts are going downtown (Nasher, Winspear, etc.), they are doing that convention center thing, and they are working on downtown public spaces (woodall rogers park). These are all things, more or less, Baltimore did too.
Baltimore's effort started in the early 1980s and now we are judging it 25 plus years later. Baltimore goes back to the first half of the 18th century. Dallas redevelopment is just getting started for the most part. That is not to say a one off comparison and imitation of this and that will achieve success. I want to point out that Dallas' efforts and problems are not all that different.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Clay213 says:
A stadium takes up huge amounts of space.
Then you need to take up more space to fit all the cars.
Then you have 70 thousand people coming in from the suburbs. Traffic, litter, noise, fighting.. I used to live near Fenway park. It's a nightmare.
And it is completely deserted the majority of the time. Just sitting there taking up all that space being empty.
Besides where exactly would you put this thing downtown? It's practically the size of downtown.
Anonymous
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush says:
Looks like I have to agree with you on that Clay.
Andrew, maybe I'm not using "central plan" correctly.
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup says:
One last thought, go to Ft Worth, it is spread out also, and yet the inner town has a thread about it, and the town is run by a couple of billionares who get along...while in Dallas, you feel the toxic overload off developers buffet, and all you can eat,for a big price,...
While in the West End Victory Park area, it is party town with puke on the elevator.A/T....Victory and its loosers in the West End....
Verified
9 months, 3 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup says:
WELL, I read the news today.......about the Victory Park....why do folks like me stand out and say....what I have said about the park...becuase I grew up near the site and parking lot's forced out a lot of landmark's.....the rest is in the paper today...until then...A/T, Love Dallas, cant stand developers...
Verified
7 months agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush says:
Perhaps we could make it a gigantic homeless shelter..give The Bridge a run for its money in the architecture dept..
Verified
7 months agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup says:
A German homeless shelter, Das Perotville...A/T, Victory, even the Victor's loose....
Verified
7 months agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Chris Kidd says:
Zee Germans have finally caught up with zee perots....mein gott, I wonder what'll happen next..
Verified
7 months agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup says:
YA,... Vas is good, now we know that money and time are all that is left of a bad dream...you can take the boy out of the country, but you cant take the country out of the boyz..Hir Perot....A/T,...Col. Klink and Hogan...on the blink...
Verified
7 months agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal