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Thursday, March 5, 2009
Bills filed in Texas Senate would allow concealed handguns on college campuses
Rep. Joe Driver considers the legislation a self-defense bill, and thinks all Texans have the right to protect themselves.
Clinton Lynch/NT Daily
Last week, a bill was proposed to allow students who posses a licensed handgun permit the right to carry concealed weapons on campus.
College campuses in Texas are currently gun-free zones, but that could change soon.
Sen. Jeff Wentworth, R-San Antonio, and Rep. Joe Driver, R-Garland, filed identical bills Feb. 26 that would allow licensed individuals to carry concealed firearms on campuses.
"The police, just like in the real world, can't be everywhere," Driver said.
Driver considers the legislation a self-defense bill, and thinks all Texans have the right to protect themselves, he said. The state permits licensed concealed carry already, and this bill would lift the ban on college campuses, he said, permitting those with a license to carry on campus.
To obtain a license an individual must be at least 21 years old, take a course and have passed an extensive background check among other requirements, Driver said.
"There's hundreds of thousands of people that have licenses, and not everyone carries," he said. The legislation would be in place to give "people the option," Driver said.
Maureen McGuinness, assistant vice president for student development, said she thinks allowing guns on campus would make NT less safe and make her job of overseeing the Center for Student Rights and Responsibilities more difficult.
McGuinness and other judicial officers for the center have to make tough decisions that affect the livelihoods of students including the ability to attend classes or live in the dorms, and not everyone is happy when they leave the center's office, she said.
"This isn't the OK Corral," she said. "The days of Tombstone are over."
The center already has cases dealing with licensed students misusing firearms, she said.
"I think people have the right to defend themselves, especially women," said Francie Wilson, an education senior.
Wilson said she doesn't have a problem with the legislation, and thinks concealed carry on campus could stop or deter an assailant until police arrived if a mass shooting, such as the one at Virginia Tech in 2007, were to occur.
Wilson doesn't have her license because she can't afford it, but is planning on obtaining one as a graduation present, she said. Wilson's brothers have licenses to carry a gun, and people who have guns carry for protection, not to hurt someone else, she said.
"Society as a whole is becoming more and more degenerate," she said.
The ability to carry concealed guns on campus wouldn't make Andrew Jordan Miller, a music composition junior, feel any safer on campus than he already is, he said. Miller doesn't see any immediate or long-term benefits of allowing guns on campus, and even though carriers would be licensed, he doesn't trust those people to carry or fire a gun responsibly.
The concept of the legislation makes sense at a certain level, but is a bad idea, said Steven Forde of the political science department. Having six or more armed students in a classroom to deter a mass shooting, if it were to occur, would do more harm than good, Forde said.
"The cure could be worse than the disease," Forde said.
If the legislation passes, the university would have to develop a program to educate staff, faculty and students on policy and procedures, McGuinness said. There would also be a different level of risk when stepping on to campus, she said.
"It's on our radar," she said. "I think we're all holding our breath and hoping it doesn't pass."
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Jesus Valadez, verified:
You know.. if someone really wanted to shoot up a school, I don't think they are waiting for them to become allowed on campus.
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xian, anonymous:
Agree. Secondly, lets say I have decided to shoot up my classroom... I can now save myself the trouble of passing a background check and buying a gun and just clock my fellow classmate over the head with a brick and steal his. More guns to solve gun violence. Sounds like starting a war for peace.
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Travis Bush, verified:
Not much one can do, but if this law passes, I'll just have to make an announcement every semester. I have asked police officers who have been in my class to please refrain from wearing their sidearm. Both times they have obliged without a problem.
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alexander troup, verified:
lets pass a law to pass new laws for 2010, and that is a law abiding situation....for passangers sleeping in coffins...A/T, Make room for more laws....dead or alive...
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Pavel Lishin, verified:
People always have these grandiose visions of a hero stopping a gunman by pulling out their own pistol.
They never think what it looks like to the policeman rushing through the door and having to quickly assess the situation.
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Jesus Valadez, verified:
So, on which floor is your class Travis? I should pop up out of nowhere.
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Travis Bush, verified:
That would rock! Oh, and don't forget to bring enough handguns for the entire class...sharing is caring, you know.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Disarming policemen who attend his class! What an idiot.
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Travis Bush, verified:
Idiot? Because I don't want firearms in my classroom? I don't think so. In the same way I refuse to live in fear of some nutbag storming all the way up to my classroom and going on a shooting rampage, I refuse to have my other students intimidated by someone wearing a firearm in the classroom. Simple as that. Call me an idiot if you like, but in all the years I've been teaching, there has never been an incident that required lethal force on my campus.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Travis, an easy question: What kind of students do you teach that might be intimated by a policeman?
Incidentally, you are proudly wearing the "It Can't Happen Here" badge. You remind me of the witless homeowner who breathes heavily into the TV reporter's microphone and chants, "I can't believe it happened in THIS neighborhood!"
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Travis Bush, verified:
Yeah right Pablo...I have lived in Dallas all my life and have been involved in and seen plenty of violent incidents. Try growing up in West Dallas. I simply refuse to be a part of the mindset that believes more guns will stop someone who really wants do do something crazy. That is the same kind of f*cked up paranoid mess we have dealt with for way too long.
There are plenty of officers on our campus who do a great job and I have no problem with them being in charge of armed security. In the classroom, police officers are not treated as authority figures, and having a visible firearm makes them just that. When you teach with people from other countries, this has a definite impact on how they react and relate to their colleagues. Maybe you don't understand or care to, and you can call me witless, or and idiot all you want, just remember you have no idea what I have seen here. To assume I am naive is a mistake.
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Rawlins, anonymous:
I've had guns in my face and not felt 'scared' and guns in my hand and not felt 'safe'. To each his own. Meanwhile it's verified that Travis is not anonymous. Do the math.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
I almost got an answer from you: It looks like you have foreigners in your class who look at police officers differently than many (most?) "home growns." What age range are we talking about and what is the typical course subject?
Yours truly,
Pablo
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Travis Bush, verified:
Many times I do have people from other countries in my hardware/software classes and their ages range from the high teens all the way up to old age. Just because the subject happens to be computers, it doesn't mean we don't talk about other topics, which may or may not lead to serious discussion. This means part of my job is to level the playing field as much as possible, per my comment about officers not being considered authority figures in the classroom.
As well, I suppose if someone were to have a concealed handgun, I would never know, but seeing as academic freedom is something I haven't had to part with for the sake of perceived public safety, I maintain the right to say what is acceptable when students are in my class.
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Scott Doyle, verified:
Are the demographics of Travis's class imperative? Christ, he's a professor...I'm relatively certain he weighed pertinent factors before coming to his decision.
Move on.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Howdy Scott, and thanks for comments from the proverbial peanut gallery!
Amigo, for all I know, 'ol Travis is teaching drivers' ed from a storefront on Centre Street in de Cliff !!
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Travis Bush, verified:
Yes, that's it..driving school...and I'm betting a lot of people get a permit for concealed weapons before they get a driver's license! :D
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Mike Bullock, staff:
I don't see this as a classroom situation. It's more of a campus - wide thing. Sure things can happen inside a classroom. But what about the cases where people get assaulted on campus going from point A - B. Then ask yourself, what about those who are handicapped and can not physically defend themself?
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Travis Bush, verified:
Really Mike, how do you expect to take their lunch money if they are armed?
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Focus, Travis, focus.
I was talking about police officers in your classroom and YOU shifted it to CHLs carried by citizens.
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Travis Bush, verified:
The first comment I made addressed both.
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Mike Bullock, staff:
I guess you could just ask politely?
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Jason Rice, verified:
I think we all really need to ask ourselves the important question:
Could we really live with ourselves if we woke up tomorrow and Travis had been shot in class?
...Before we had the opportunity to strangle him with our bare hands.
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Travis Bush, verified:
"..Before we had the opportunity to strangle him with our bare hands. "
The waiting list is rather extensive..
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Jason Rice, verified:
Tell me about it. #425 and I cut in line.
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Scott Doyle, verified:
Howdy pablo! If you don't want random internet people piping up, I suggest sending an email instead of commenting on a public site.
Methinks mitigating the opportunity for an accidental shooting holds water, especially considering its likelihood compared to someone unloading clips in Travis's classroom. Regardless, it's his classroom...if he feels a gun within sight is a distraction or discomfort for other students I fail to see the idiocy.
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Travis Bush, verified:
There are some other practical aspects that some do not consider as well. If you are in a lab class, which is part of my teaching routine, do they stow the weapon, or just wear it right there for everyone to see? What is to say the chance of a concealed weapon being stolen isn't greater on a college campus?
This needs special consideration if the weapon is not being carried on the person at all times, versus stowed in a handbag, or other satchel. Look at the theft rates of any college and these statistics will tell you that one slip and your shiite will disappear with a quickness. I have lost cameras there and it wasn't because I didn't consider them valuable or worth keeping an eye on..simply a small piece of time and space I was not paying attention enough to that allowed someone to steal.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Travis, thanks for your comments.
Again, my initial reaction was based on your comment that you require disarmament of police officers. I made the assumption that you were talking about uniformed officers. If that is the case, a cop WITHOUT his piece looks a lot weirder (to me) than one with, regardless of the locale.
IF you are talking about uniformed officers, I suggest that our basis for disagreement is this: I consider "fully-dressed" policemen an asset just about any place. You find them a liability, at least in your class space.
Got to get to work. Adios.
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Pavel Lishin, verified:
Travis: "Some people are intimidated by guns, so I ask my students to remove them."
Pablo: "YOU TEACH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND CRIMINALS, AND ALSO HATE COPS."
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Chris Kidd, verified:
Hey Teacher, leave those kids alone!
Ok, that being said, eventhough I have some liberal leanings, im in favor of conceal/carry laws in multiple venues. If it allows us to be in a safer society, im all for it. In fact, im going after my license in the not too distant future.
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jtmbls, anonymous:
That gives a whole new meaning to the name chrisdanger!
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Jason Rice, verified:
<snif> chris... our little liberal is growing up.
somehow I'm not finding comfort in a armed version, however.
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AnnMarie Wilson, verified:
I'm fully on Travis side; of course I also would rather have a full ban on guns period.
But the last thing we needs are concealed guns (guns of any sort) allowed on a school campus.
This country glorifies guns and violence; how pray tell is that a good or constructive thing?
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Pavel Lishin, verified:
"This country glorifies guns and violence; how pray tell is that a good or constructive thing?"
BUT GUNS ARE COOL
<a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2009/mar/08/rapper-gorilla-zoe-visits-dallas-pearl-c-anderson-/"><img border="0" src="http://i41.tinypic.com/713dl0.jpg"></a>
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jtmbls, anonymous:
This country?
You are so right. We should be more like Mexico. No, wait, that’s not a good example. Drug cartels have taken over the country.
Africa! No, wait, war torn. Even the children are armed! Hmmm…
Ireland! Oh, no…The IRA is back to their violent ways.
Russia! Ooops! Armed robberies and assassination attempts are prevalent.
South America! Darn! Guerillas, kidnappers and narcos.
Sweden should be reasonably safe…but violent crimes are on the rise.
China, now that is a safe country! The government is a little scary though.
Of course I won’t even bring up the Middle East.
But you’re right! This is a United States of America issue. It’s this country, not human nature. Bad, bad Americans!
Oh well, there is always Canada!
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Jason Rice, verified:
We should focus on Hairstyles and Fashion Accessories.
Go with your strengths, I always say.
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Jason Rice, verified:
And Tumbles you forget that all those other countries' problems are our fault too. That's how I've been taught at least.
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jtmbls, anonymous:
Yes, we are constantly being reminded of that, aren't we?
Shame on all of you!!!
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Jesus Valadez, verified:
Can I carry around a nuke instead? Sometimes Canada pisses me off with their milk in a bag. THAT'S NOT NORMAL MAN!
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Rick Yost, verified:
One of the more disturbing topics we've discussed yet. This certainly speaks of the current state of American society.
Gee, I wonder if Sen. Wentworth and Rep. Driver are connected to the NRA.
"The police, just like in the real world, can't be everywhere," -So, preparing for the off-chance that having a gun in the class room might be handy, (in case some kid decides to bring a gun to class and starts shooting) you're wanting to put handguns in the hands of all the kids. Smart!
Can you imagine parents allowing their children to carry guns, and not being armed themselves?
My wife and I have two college age kids- they're still just kids that are old enough to drink. More guns will not calm this violent society.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Dear Rick:
RTFM. To get a carry license, one has to be 21 years of age. Does that qualify as "children?"
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Rick Yost, verified:
In my opinion- yes!
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Rick Yost, verified:
I'm not trying to pick on 21 yr olds. I remember being one myself- an embarrassingly long time ago.
Although most that age would like to think of themselves as grown-up, they can still be childish bundles of emotion, pushed by peer pressure, full of frustrations, insecurities, and confusing hormones. Add a weapon and wait for the fun to happen.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Ok, let's shift the CHL age to 30 and the right to own a long gun to 26. Hell, I don't think most of the little sh*theads can balance a checkbook at 21, so let's move bank account ownership up to at least 26, too. No knowledge of home maintenance, so no mortgages until 30. Owning something like gas-welding equipment? Don't ask!
Slippery slope, no?
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Jason Rice, verified:
Slippery? Well, last time I heard of a rampant arc-welding massacre was.... um..... a bad B-movie.
Last gun-wielding massacre.... um... yesterday in Alabama and the day before in Germany, and the day before....
Slippery as in banana? Nope. Apples and oranges, maybe.
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pabloindallas, anonymous:
Jason, I propose that we ban anyone from internet commentary until he attains 50 and/or attains the ability to think linearly.
Incidentally, butthead, here's a historical footnote that I didn't think of until you brought it up: The Columbine mopes tried to blow up their school with acetylene or propane or some such stuff, but bungled the job.
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Jason Rice, verified:
::butthead
::some such stuff
http://www.urbandebate.org/index.htm
Go get 'em tiger.
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Alex Bentley, staff:
Received this as a content submission today:
Mary Pharris’s unbiased article related to the two bills filed in the Texas Legislature, which would allow concealed handguns on college campuses, was accurate with factual information, until Maureen McGuinness, Assistant Vice President for Student Development for the University of North Texas was quoted. McGuinness oversees the Center for Student Rights and Responsibilities at UNT.
McGuinness claims that “the center already has cases dealing with licensed students misusing firearms.” Students for Concealed Carry on Campus investigated this matter by contacting both McGuinness and the Deputy Chief of Police at UNT.
When contacting McGuinness, she affirmed that the university has dealt with cases with licensed students misusing firearms and that she could not provide further information due to student privacy laws. McGuinness suggested contacting UPD.
“I searched our police database for incidents involving firearms misuse by students who possessed a concealed handgun license back to 1995 and was unable to locate anything,” Deputy Chief Ed Reynolds stated in an email.
SCCC contacted UPD prior to speaking with McGuinness, which confirmed the assertion McGuinness made was, in fact, erroneous.
Katie Kasprzak Director of Public Relations Students for Concealed Carry on Campus www.ConcealedCampus.com (832) 444-0328
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Scott Doyle, verified:
An unsuccessful query must mean it never happened!
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jtmbls, anonymous:
Well, she can't just throw around unsubstantiated claims like that.
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xian, anonymous:
It seems to me that we are missing the point. You know what has the best chance of preventing school gun violence? It's not more guns floating around, it's perceptive teachers. Remember the VT shooting? Don't you think that instead of having armed students in the classroom, those students would have been better served by the shooter getting some much needed mental help? I mean, the guy was sick in the head, and all the signs were there. Even if every student in his class was packing, something was going to happen. We need to start thinking about the causes of our problems, instead of reflexively jumping towards the easy answers. Whether its gun violence, war, drug abuse, or financial shenanigans, we always seem to try and fit our problems into nice neat little boxes and life isn't like that.
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xian, anonymous:
<http: 03="" 12="" 2009="" europe="" germany.school.shooting.women="" index.html="" world="" www.cnn.com="">
So there's that, then. But you know, if only the teacher had been allowed to have a revolver in her desk...</http:>
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Jason Rice, verified:
...It would have saved him the trouble of breaking in to his folk's stash.
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jtmbls, anonymous:
I don't know...It seems like young males have enough trouble even driving a car safely, I'm not sure it's a good idea to arm them with weapons. But I wouldn't go about disarming police officers (like some people) either.
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Travis Bush, verified:
".It seems like young males have enough trouble even driving a car safely,"
Actually quite funny coming from teh womenz!
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Rick Yost, verified:
It seems like we have screwed this society up completely if young people are considering carrying weapons to school.
'Dysfunctional America 101'
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jtmbls, anonymous:
Statistics Professor Peacenik, statistics! Besides, I've got some mad driving skrills.
It is definitely in my plans to put my 21 year old daughter through a few courses (More than just the required for a CC) but only because she is emotionally very level. I’m more worried about kidnappers and serial killers than I am campus shootings. Admittedly, I watch and read about too many true crime stories. It is terrifying to think that my daughter could ever be in one of those situations and it would make me feel better if she were armed and dangerous 24/7.
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What do you think?