Effects of DART light rail on Plano

Scott Doyle, says:

Surprise! Republican's first post as a content partner suggests removing funding for the only environmentally friendly mass transit connecting Plano to Dallas.

Have a feeling you won't receive much praise around here if you keep this up, chief.

John McClelland, says:

So essentially we admit Plano's government is not doing enough development around its rails. Developing around their rail hubs would bring new business, increasing sales tax revenue.

Therein lies the main problem. Cities, and Texas government in general, rely too heavily on sales tax revenue to fund their needs. The other tax is property tax, which only funds counties and the ISD. It is like a 2 legged stool. It is bound to collapse. Diversity among taxation will create a more stable revenue stream. Plano should be looking at other options besides the sales tax.

Scot Walker, says:

"This needs to looked at long term, not short term. Mass transit is an important key to the future for all metro areas."

My blog is about light rail. Why is it important?

"Republican's first post as a content partner suggests removing funding for the only environmentally friendly mass transit connecting Plano to Dallas"

It makes no measurable difference on the air quality at all because of two things, 1) it's taking a tiny, tiny number of cars off the road, 2) the electricity it uses comes from power plants that are not "environmentally friendly"

"So essentially we admit Plano's government is not doing enough development around its rails. "

Over $20 million isn't enough? The point is it's a giant money pit. Plano has sunk hundreds of millions into this and there haven't been any benefits.

What is the purpose of spending millions of our tax dollars there? There are many negative effects. I see no benefits.

"The other tax is property tax, which only funds counties and the ISD"

There is a city property tax too and it was raised in 2006 to create an economic incentive fund.

"Plano's tax revenues is no longer growing because Plano is pretty much built out, while Frisco, Allan, and McKinney are still growing"

I'm guessing you haven't driven along George Bush, 121, or North Dallas Tollway. There are thousands of acres of undeveloped land in Plano.

In regards to sales tax, the point you missed was Frisco took projects away from Plano because of the economic incentive fund they have in their sales tax and these projects create a ton of sales tax revenue. Again, Frisco's sales tax revenue is almost twice that of Plano per capita.

The point about property tax is we are told by rail advocates that light rail stations create more property tax revenue and this justifies the cost of light rail. There are two problems with that 1) the cost of the rail dwarfs any increase property tax revenue, 2) the developments around the station require huge subsidies from the city, thus making any increase in property tax revenue moot.

"Also, he keeps talking about pulling out of funding rail, as if bus service would still be available. This is of course false...if DART goes away, bus and rail service both go away"

That's only true if DART is the only source for busses. That isn't the case.

"I guess Scot Walker would point to Arlington as a model of success...no silly transit there!"

My blog was not about "transit". It was specifically about light rail.

Frisco, McKinney and Allen are indeed models of success and have learned from Plano's mistakes.

Chris Kidd, says:

That was the absolute most pointless article ive ever read and ANY news site. Why did you let the guy on here orren, was it because he had a banner?? It suprises me that every repub nutjob thinks anything involing public transit or taxation is the tool of the devil. Guess what kids: its the 21st century, we need to get with the program. If he prefers an area without rail, I heard waco/temple/kileen is a great place to live..

Scot Walker, says:

Great, if the suburbs become abandoned in this future of yours, why do we need rail there? ;)

Scot Walker, says:

"That was the absolute most pointless article ive ever read and ANY news site. Why did you let the guy on here orren, was it because he had a banner?? It suprises me that every repub nutjob thinks anything involing public transit or taxation is the tool of the devil. Guess what kids: its the 21st century, we need to get with the program."

The "program" costs ~$60 million each year for Plano and takes less than 1% of the cars off the road.

Did you actually have a logical point to make or was that it?

"I heard waco/temple/kileen is a great place to live.."

And Frisco, Allen, McKinney, The Colony...the cities not eliminating police and fire positions and raising fees like Plano.

Scot Walker, says:

"I just want to point out that this guy does not in any way represent all or even most Republicans. One of the biggest advocates for transit funding in Texas is Kay Bailey Hutchison."

That doesn't at all refute the actual effects of light rail in Plano, does it?

Scot Walker, says:

Yes, you have a weird animosity towards Plano. Again, that doesn't refute the effects of light rail on Plano.

I agree that Plano has made mistakes. This blog is about one of the biggest mistakes it has made.

Travis Bush, says:

I think JRice had the right idea about putting a moat around Plano...I say let them swim to work!

Scot Walker, says:

"You do realize that if Plano were to exit DART, they'd lose the bus service, too, don't you? DART includes buses as well as light rail."

They'd lose bus service from DART, which isn't covering the majority of the city anyway because they cut it back to help pay for the rail service.

That doesn't keep Plano from creating their own bus service where they feel it is needed, at a tiny fraction of the cost of DART.

The point is a huge number of people using rail are people who were taking the bus, so it's not a 1:1 ratio on how many cars are taken off the road.

Scot Walker, says:

"I'd LOVE to see the numbers on that one."

The numbers comparing the capital costs and operating costs for bus versus light rail are numerous. Light rail costs a lot more. That's why every transportation agency across the USA cuts back on their bus service, light rail costs so much.

DART is building a 9-mile line to Irving for $200 million per mile. That's insanely expensive.

Federal GAO estimates in 1999 that operating costs in dollars per vehicle revenue mile - Dallas light rail is $12 and Dallas bus is under $2.

There are corporate vanpools and suburban transportation associations all over the USA that run busses for a fraction of the cost.

To give you an idea, the 2006 operating budget for the Denton County Tranportation Authority was $8.6 million for all the transportation needs of a county of over 600,000 people. Plano is giving DART ~$60 million for Plano alone.

Jason Rice, says:

x*x - I think it's part of our larger Secession Plano movement. We plan a satellite launch mid July and are on target for strategic intercontinental ballistic missile tests in time for Thanksgiving.

Scot Walker, says:

"I have nothing against Plano. I'm just pointing out the trends that affect communities."

The trends you speak of aren't reflected in reality in any metropolitan area in the USA. The suburbs are definitely not vacant. While downtown areas are seeing a resurgence with condos and lofts being sold to mostly single or married without kids people, the suburbs are still expanding, as you well know and it obviously irks you.

"Pulling out of DART will do nothing to stem these inevitable changes that happen when cities age. Again, take a look at Arlington."

Pulling out of DART will give ~$60 million to the city council and mayor to pay for police and fire, which have been slashed because of a multimillion dollar deficit. Did you not read my article? :)

Our property taxes were increase, because of DART. Our fees for everything, including recreation centers, have as much as doubled because of DART.

In your vision of the future where all the people in the suburbs want to live in Dallas there is nothing that makes a case for Plano to keep DART.

"I personally would much rather have my tax dollars pay for public transportation than wellfare handouts (either personal or corperate)."

That's a straw man argument because those aren't the only two choices. How about libraries and streets and police and fire?

"If you don't like it, don't use it, but why should I be forced to own a car just to get by in life?"

Why should 99 people pay for the transportation of 1 individual to the tune of 25% of the entire city budget? That's not an effective use of the tax payers' money. It might make you FEEEEL good, but it's not effective. The numbers don't support that.

"Thats the situation that the government created with our tax dollars over the past half-century. They built massive highway projects that encouraged sprawl and in the processess forced all formerly private transit companies out of buisness, while relegating walking to a quaint hobby or an extreme sport."

Yes, I know "spawl" is an evil word on the Left (read my blog about California), but in reality, it's the market choosing to move to the suburbs, not the government mandating it. That's what you are complaining about - people choosing to buy cars and use the highways versus using public transportation. And the Left wants to change the public's behavior by making car travel less convenient and funneling funds into rail.

The Left likes to view itself as the side of choice, yet it's the one that more often than not tries to dictate what everyone else's behavior should be.

In the end, this is an argument of political philosophy and ideology versus an effective use of tax payer money to help alleviate traffic congestion. The ~$60 million Plano spends per year makes no measurable difference on traffic congestion.

Nobody responding to my blog is arguing facts or logic, only emotion. You can't refute any of the facts. I'm getting a lot of hyperbole and ad hominem statements.

Travis Bush, says:

"The Left likes to view itself as the side of choice, yet it's the one that more often than not tries to dictate what everyone else's behavior should be."

That's fairly rich coming from a Texas Republican...

Scot Walker, says:

"Denton County Transportation Authority has tiny a fraction of the coverage that DART has"

You are confused. I'm talking about just Plano, not all of DART. DART's Plano bus coverage is a fraction of what Denton County's coverage is, at a cost of ~$60 million for Plano versus Denton County's $8.6 million.

Your point about Denton's rail plans to connect with DART to downtown doesn't at all refute the effects of light rail in Plano.

You can bring out lots and lots of people, like Kay Bailey, who love rail and want lots and lots of rail. None of that refutes what the actual benefits versus cost of rail in Plano.

Scot Walker, says:

"That's fairly rich coming from a Texas Republican.."

If you say so.

Scot Walker, says:

"youre probably against HOV lanes as well"

Another great example of the Left punishing tax payers who paid for that road because they aren't behaving the way the Left wants them to.

HOV is dictated to local governments by the Fed, through federal funds, by Democrats. If you want the Feds to help pay for it, you gotta do what the Democrats want you to do.

Joel Woiton, says:

DART rocks! If paying higher taxes gets a usable mass transportation system, I'm all for it.

John McClelland, says:

I'd have to agree with palchik that DCTA is not a good analogy to DART. DCTA's service only covers 3 cities. The other cities refuse to opt in because their sales tax rates are already at cap level.

I would LOVE to have a DCTA rail that served the eastern part of Denton County connecting to a new DART rail in North Dallas, but we may never get one because of the stubborness of cities like The Colony. We don't even have bus options anywhere north of Plano on the eastern side. Denton, Lewisville, and Highland Village are the towns who have their crap together when it comes to mass transit.

Tevi lawson, says:

WoW. The problem we should be thinking about is how to make light rail usage more attractive and make it profitable. That will be the best solution down the road to a better environment and less clogged highways and the sooner we get with the program, the better off we and future generations will be...People need to get off that i got to drive my own car at all times outdated mentality and think further than the tip of their nose.

Travis Bush, says:

Tevi, that is the sensible approach. However, with people like the op-ed, everything has to be left or right, instead of what is best for an entire area of the state that will sooner or later give way to even more urban and suburban sprawl. If everything else fails, one is quite sure his compatriots in Austin will simply change the face of voting districts AGAIN to suit their needs.

Scott Doyle, says:

The problem with that is a penny sales tax adds up to millions of dollars.

Actually, that's the effectiveness of the penny sales tax. It generates revenue intended while mitigating risk of schemers skimming for their personal agenda.

Why should 99 people pay for the transportation of 1 individual to the tune of 25% of the entire city budget?

Why should we bother changing anything, ever? I mean, people aren't diving off the edge of our flat planet yet...must be doing something right!

I'm presuming these numbers are only for DART ticket sales? Wonder how much these figures would jump if someone actually policed passengers? I've ridden the rail twice in the past week and I'm fairly sure at least 3 out of 5 people just hopped on without paying.

Talking about how DART's not an effective use of taxpayer money while there's still not a viable gas-alternative being considered for mass production is short-sighted, at best. It's political suicide for anybody who wants to abandon what we've already invested so much in.

Fact is our area has piss-poor infrastructure for mass transit and 1.5 rail lines don't afford everybody in the tax-base convenience. Rather than bitching and moaning, how about making it more convenient?

alexander troup, says:

While Dart want to raise rent by September this year, cutting their throats and the guy who say why,5 bucks to ride a tube filled with ......noise..A/T, ..Wake up Dallas, Dart and D.I.S.D are now buddies..

Scott Doyle, says:

palchik, seems you popped back up after about 8 months of being dormant for this issue - are you local or just a crusader?

Could use this type of sense in other threads, imo.

Pavel Lishin, says:

Hey, what doesn't make sense about the bus going from next door to me all the way downtown, basically paralleling the DART route?

Scot Walker, says:

"I'd have to agree with palchik that DCTA is not a good analogy to DART. DCTA's service only covers 3 cities."

I'm not communicating this well. ;)

I was told that if Plano pulls out of DART, it would have no bus service. I pointed out that lots of companies and suburbs run their own bus service all over the nation at a much smaller cost than Plano's ~$60 million per year. Someone said they wanted to see those numbers. I pointed to Denton County covering over 600,000 people at a cost of $8.6 million per year. DART costs the city of Plano ~$60 million to cover 260,000 people, and I pointed out that DART doesn't even cover a huge portion of Plano with bus. Denton County is covering over 600,000 people for $8.6 million. So Plano could drop DART and provide bus service for the city for less than $8.6 million per year, a savings of ~$52 million per year.

"The problem we should be thinking about is how to make light rail usage more attractive and make it profitable"

Yes, what we have is a lot of people emotionally attached to rail and they are putting the cart in front of the horse. Is light rail effective in Plano? No.

But to answer your question, you could do what socialist countries like Denmark do and create a 180% sales tax for automobiles. That would compel people to use public transportation more, wouldn't it?

"People need to get off that i got to drive my own car at all times outdated mentality and think further than the tip of their nose"

Hence my point about the Left wanting to impose their behaviors onto everyone else. Instead of wanting to actually create an effective solution to a problem, we have people with agendas who don't care if their solution is effective or not.

"However, with people like the op-ed, everything has to be left or right, instead of what is best for an entire area of the state that will sooner or later give way to even more urban and suburban sprawl"

That word "sprawl" again. Yeah, building homes for people is evil, isn't it? :)

The solution to traffic congestion in DFW is most definitely not light rail trains. 1.52% of the DART member city population took light rail last summer when gas prices were $4 a gallon at a cost of over $1 billion dollars. The vast majority of that 1.52% were people who were taking the bus before.

"Actually, that's the effectiveness of the penny sales tax. It generates revenue intended while mitigating risk of schemers skimming for their personal agenda"

I'm not criticizing the sales tax method. What you quoted was me defining how much a penny sales tax actually is. In Plano, it's 25% of the entire city budget.

"Why should we bother changing anything, ever? I mean, people aren't diving off the edge of our flat planet yet...must be doing something right!"

Hyperbole. Listen, we can't have a productive discussion on what is working and what isn't working if everyone reacts emotionally and throws out straw men arguments are hyperbole or ad hominem.

Please don't portray me as someone who believes the world is flat. I am the one presenting actual numbers and facts. The fact remains that Plano is spending 25% of its entire budget so that 1% can take a train on the average weekday. There is nothing flat Earth about that.

"I'm presuming these numbers are only for DART ticket sales? Wonder how much these figures would jump if someone actually policed passengers? I've ridden the rail twice in the past week and I'm fairly sure at least 3 out of 5 people just hopped on without paying."

You've ridden it only twice? So you are promoting something you yourself don't use?

Ticket sales are irrelevant. Plano must give the same amount of money to DART no matter how many people ride it. Ticket sales are relevant to DART as a whole on how big their deficit is, but it has nothing to do with Plano.

"Talking about how DART's not an effective use of taxpayer money while there's still not a viable gas-alternative being considered for mass production is short-sighted, at best. It's political suicide for anybody who wants to abandon what we've already invested so much in."

That's another straw man argument. There are many alternatives to light rail.

Your logic is it doesn't matter if what you are spending so much money on actually works, we should continue spending money on it because we have already spent so much? Plano would save ~$60 million next year if they dropped out of DART and got that penny to work for roads, economic incentive fund...

Scot Walker, says:

"Ah, so you think that all of us who disagree with your less-than-convincing op-ed are part of the villainous "Left", do you Scot?"

What did you just quote? You quoted me saying that the Left wants to change the public's behavior by making car travel less convenient. That is true.

"I, for one, am a pretty consistent Republican voter, but I whole-heartedly disagree with your views on DART, rail, transit, etc."

But you have yet to refute anything in my blog. It's just a fact that in Plano, light rail is not effective and it costs so much money, the other services the city provides are suffering.

"But, I have no problem at all with my tax-dollars going to fund services that benefit the entire community"

But it's not benefiting the entire community. It's benefiting 1% of the community.

"In my mind, that includes police and fire, parks, schools, and libraries as you have said, AS WELL AS transit"

Only if the transit is effective. It's not in Plano.

"You may say that only a small percentage of Plano residents use transit, but I could say the same about libraries, and even the police and fire departments"

At what cost, to what effect? Those are important questions. DART costs much more than any of those departments you list.

You bring up libraries. They are 3% compared with 25% for DART.

So, again, let's not have hyperbole where you compare the public safety department to light rail trains.

"DART is a service that is available to all residents regardless of socio-economic status, and its benefit is very tangable."

There are no benefits to the city of Plano, only a negative impact on the rest of the city's services.

"guarantee you that if you worked downtown Scot, you would use DART"

That's irrelevant in regards to whether or not it actually accomplishes what it is supposed to do.

But I personally would not take DART light rail because I live off of Coit Road and it would take me 35 minutes just to drive to the station. If I wanted to take a bus, it would take me an hour to get to the Parker station.

So you might then say, well, gee, we should put light rail up the middle of Plano and on the west side too. The problem with that is it is cost prohibitive.

Light rail is too expensive - period.

It's costing Irving $1.9 billion just for a 9-mile stretch of light rail. Imagine how much it would cost for DART to run a line up the tollway, if they had the space.

But why should I pay for the minority who works downtown? What is so special about downtown? Why don't we pay to get people to work in North Dallas, or in Las Colinas?

The solution for the problem of a huge number of people working downtown is to create more business in the suburbs, which is exactly what Plano and Frisco have been doing. There are thousands of jobs in Plano and Frisco and those people don't need to go downtown.

The wheel spoke design of metropolitan areas is what is antiquated, not the freedom of driving your own car to go where you want to go.

Why put all the jobs in the center? Spread them out. That's what is happening.

"On the second point of multi-culturalism vs. national unity, I think that public transportation is one of the most effective tools of integration in our society. If you ride a DART train during rush hour you will see every imaginable socio-economic, ethnic, and religious group together, sharing a common experience. I think thats a positive force on our society."

Which backs up my point about mass transit being more about an agenda versus trying to actually solve a problem.

Spending 25% of your budget so 1% of society can share a train to sing Kumbaya is a giant waste of tax payers' money.

"Finally, your proposal of having a stand alone bus system in Plano is just silly. The power of DART lies in the fact that its an interconnected regional network. One of the main benefits of DART buses in Plano is that they feed into DART rail."

I do not mean to disrespect you, but you don't know what you are talking about. Any bus from any association can connect to any other mode from any other association. How do you get to Fort Worth using DART? TRE. Denton County connects to DART. No problem.

"Without the rail component, bus service in Plano would be a guaranteed failure."

That's not backed up by the facts. DART's own bus service carries twice as many people as the light rail. Denton County has no rail.

It's actually the opposite. You have cities across the United States that have had successful bus service for decades implementing light rail, and the light rail costs so much money, the bus service gets scaled back and the low income bus riders who don't live near the rail stations lose their bus route. So light rail actually harms bus service.

"The only people who would use buses in Plano if they were not part of a larger network would be the truly transit dependent. "

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Just look at the DART bus route map to see how wrong you are. The vast majority of DART's bus passengers are not taking busses to light rail stations. That's a ridiculous notion.

"On the other hand buses that feed into rail service that has a dedicated right-of-way and a predictable and reliable schedule benefits us all. You should try it one day Scot, you might see what we all like so much about it."

Again, people are emotionally attached to it and are completely ignoring the cost/benefit analysis.

Pavel Lishin, says:

tallscot - Let me start off saying that I'm impressed that you're answering points one by one, staying on topic, and aren't getting dragged down into, well, the sorts of thread I'm usually all over. It's going to be nice having someone representing your philosophy who isn't a loon.

Just one thing I wanted to point out - you can build homes for people without sprawl. Suburbia is not the only, nor the best, way to house people. It only seems that way in Texas because we have a seemingly limitless amount of land available to us.

Jason Rice, says:

::Why don't we pay to get people to work in North Dallas, or in Las Colinas?

Or locating tech biz into Plano. Penney's and Frito Lay are great, but not phenomenal growth industries at present.

If Mohamed won't come to the mountain...

Palchik - hop the train up to Downtown Plano to play one evening. If you've never been up there even once on that one slim line to play or shop, you pretty much clinch Scot's point that you offer nothing in return for demanding much conformity for its own sake.

By Scot's calculation, that train costs me about $1200 per ride down to the Dallas Zoo. Sure that's $400 each split across the family, but I could rent a limo and driver those weekends instead.

alexander troup, says:

I still think it cost too much, while the old Interurban was a delight, then they tore that out in the mid 1930's, leaving behind buses and cars...for the Czar's to run and ruin the sports minded greeks from running down the street...oh Dart, can you come to life with out causing big money death.....A/T,.. Why ride when you can fly...

Jason Rice, says:

::a few bucks on beer up there.

Great then we can argue like civilized people and try to kill each other with our bare hands. I live in Plano and I shop in Plano so Scot's stats apply directly.

Now if a train ran within 10 miles of my commute destination, I'd be a rabid fan. But as it is, it's someone else's convenience I'm paying for. Like "Robin Hood" for commuters.

Jason Rice, says:

Oh, and as you're doling out blame, look up who purchased the Interurban (and its sisters nationwide) and dismantled it.

THAT's a paradox... or monopoly depending on how you spell it. And then tell me they deserve 50 billion to crawl out of the SUV gluttony induced squalor --- yup. Soon as my third Prius is paid for, I'll be purchasing a fourth.

But back to fisticuffs over a rail I can't use.... And your momma dresses you funny.

Jason Rice, says:

DC - oh Lord, had I known it was single mothers and homosexuals, my socializaton would have had me sign a check right then and there.

Always an incomparable depth of insight

Joel Woiton, says:

ABSOLUTELY, don't get out of DART unless you have a viable transit plan to replace it ready to implement.

Scot Walker, says:

"I agree that buses service is most effective when the trips are short and frequent, but the answer to that is more rail, not less as Scot is advocating."

No, because we can't afford it and you are still believing that rail is the best method in a low density suburb. I have shown that it is not.

It's costing DART $1.9 billion to build a 9 mile line to Irving. DART and Plano cannot afford another line up the middle of Plano and yet another line on the west side of Plano.

The more rail you build, the bigger the deficit gets because each rider is subsidized heavily.

Each line loses a lot of money. The more lines you have the more you lose.

"In the Dallas area (and especially in Plano), many major thoroughfares are completely sterile environments lined by nothing more than sound walls, and to get to the places where people are or want to get buses have to wind their way around all over the place."

Plano is a giant grid with 3 lanes of traffic going each direction. It's perfectly designed for bus service. The problem is, the public would rather have the freedom and convenience of their car. Nothing you do is going to change that, except make the use of their car less convenient, which is what happens in areas like Portland.

In a downtown environment, it's less convenient to use your car because the density is much, much higher so the roads are much more congested than the surface streets of Plano, which run very smoothly even during rush hour.

There is little parking in a downtown environment but lots of free parking in the suburbs. So car travel in a city environment is less convenient and so there is more demand for public transportation.

The suburbs are not well suited for public transportation.

"People can not reasonably be expected to walk out to the major thoroughfares either because pedestrian infrastructure is poor or non-existent and major thoroughfares are spaced a mile or more apart. So, its true that generations of bad policy make good transit very difficult to provide in many parts of North Texas, but that doesn't mean we should just give up and not try to restructure our environments from here on out. "

This thinking is backwards. You are complaining that the density isn't high enough to create the congestion problem that would justify the mode of transportation you are touting.

Building McKinney out at a high density will only make the traffic on 75 worse. You want lower density so there are fewer people per square mile using the roads, enrolling kids into schools, using services.

Do you think that the people living in Plano would want to live there if the city blocks were short and the housing lots were small with no backyards big enough for a pool and/or playset - i.e., an urban environment? If they did want that, they'd be living in an urban environment now.

I live in Plano because I want to live in a low density environment with a big house and a swimming pool and convenient shopping that is car-friendly.

"As I've said before, if you are so adamant about pulling Plano out of DART, there is a legal avenue for that. All you have to do is work toward getting the issue on the ballot in a future election. Coppel and Flower Mound pulled out of DART in the 1980s (are they better off for it?). Plano actually did hold a pull-out referendum in 1996, but it failed by 77% to 23%."

I'm quite sure that if you put forth the actual facts about the cost and effectiveness of DART to the public, that vote would be different. But that's irrelevant. My main purpose is to get those facts out to the public, because like I said, the public really has no clue how much it actually costs or how many people actually use it.

The residents of Allen, Frisco and McKinney need to know the effects of DART on Plano.

The media and DART itself mislead the public into thinking it's much more successful than it really is.

And I don't have a clue if Coppel and Flower Mound are better off without DART, but I do know that Plano would be hiring more police and fire fighters versus cutting positions if it were not a DART member city. I do know Plano would definitely be better off without DART.

"Just one thing I wanted to point out - you can build homes for people without sprawl. Suburbia is not the only, nor the best, way to house people. It only seems that way in Texas because we have a seemingly limitless amount of land available to us."

It doesn't matter how dense you make it, it will become full at some point and you will need to expand.

The demand for suburbs is not exclusive to Texas. I lived in the Bay Area for 8 years and the Sacramento area for 5 years and people like the suburbs there too. It's more expensive in California because there are more people with an anti-suburbs agenda there imposing more fees and filing lawsuits. Check out my Collin County Dreamin' blog on this subject.

Again, is rail a solution for a problem or is it an agenda?

"Just a helpful tip, West Plano Transit Center is at Coit and 15th St."

5 miles from my house. There's no bus going down Coit from Hedgecoxe. Do I walk?

Listen, I'm extremely experienced with the lifestyle you are promoting. I lived in San Francisco for 8 years and I took Muni and BART all the time. Even there, it takes a lot longer to get where you want to go using public transportation when it comes to crosstown destinations.

When it comes to commuting from places like Oakland or Walnut Creek to San Francisco's employment center in the Financial District, BART is definitely faster. But BART is heavy rail, not light rail, and it carries hundreds of thousands of people 80 miles an hour from one high-density area to a huge employment center. That doesn't apply to Plano.

"Secondly, DART and DCTA do not currently have a reciprocal fare agreement, and passengers wishing to transfer from one system to the other have to pay twice. This would very likely be the case with whatever system you come up with for Plano too."

The point is different transit agencies are tied together all over the world.

The fact is Plano could have a much more extensive bussing system than their current DART coverage at a fraction of the cost that DART currently requires from Plano. This ignores the issue of whether or not there is enough demand in Plano for such a thing, I'm just pointing out that they could do it.

"Downtown Dallas, like so many others was decimated by government-funded highway projects. The loop of highways that surround the city core cut it off from surrounding neighborhoods"

Yes, those pesky expressways allowed the public to make a choice, didn't they? We need to get rid of those expressways so that people are forced to live the way we want them to live, right? :)

People choose to live in the suburbs because that's what they want. It's that simple.

Downtown is less important because companies are putting their offices in the suburbs. It's that simple.

Scot Walker, says:

"DART is close to $2 Billion in debt today. By the time Plano could hold another election, DART will be close to $4 Billion in debt. It'll take years for Plano sales taxes to pay off that debt.

Why would any sane person recommend Plano pull out of DART this year? You're a year too late."

Plano's obligation is to pay for the infrastructure built in Plano. DART's debt is irrelevant.

"For a while it was great fun for the early adopters of the automobile-centric suburban lifestyle. But after a while, every Tom, Dick, and Harry was living in the suburbs and trying to shove their car into the jammed-up arterial streets that then fed into the clogged-up freeways. It wouldn't even be so bad if it was just twice a day that you had to fight traffic, but because of the development patterns needed to accommodate 2, 3, or even 4-car households walking became an impossibility. You need to buy some toothpaste? Hop in the car! The kid needs to go to baseball practice? Hop in the car! For every aspect of everyday life, the answer became hop in the car, and the traffic jams just got longer and later. Then Tom, Dick, and Harry got older...so old in fact that they probably shouldn't be operating heavy machinery. But what are you gonna do? Gotta live right? So finally, some civic leaders decided that maybe we had gone a bit too far with this automobile dependence stuff. "

Again, this is a straw man. The choice isn't between a car-oriented society with gridlock or a public transit-oriented society.

If I lived in San Francisco again and my 8-year old had a baseball game, you think I'm going to walk down the street with him, wait up to 20 minutes for the bus, take it west to the north/south line, get off, wait up to 20 minutes for the north/south bus, take it south and get off and walk four blocks to the baseball field, all in rain/heat/cold/ice...and repeat all of that going home? Or would I hop in my car and take a 10 minute drive to the field?

I live in Plano. I take my car to the store all the time. It's not gridlock. My wife works in Plano. She drives 6 miles. It's not gridlock.

Why? Because Plano is mostly low density. If Plano had nothing but apartment complexes along the same routes, the traffic would be horrible.

Don't create a problem to justify the solution you want.

"Now this transit system is finally starting to get its legs if you will, and expanding to serve more and more people in more and more places. So what do we do? Should we support it as an alternative to the auto-centric model that has been our ONLY choice for a half-century, or do we abandon it because we believe there's not enough of it (as twisted as that logic is). I think we are on the right track (sorry for the pun), and besides, Rome was not built in a day."

People like their cars. I do. Oh well. Plano has had rail for years and even when gas was $4 a gallon, 1% used the rail.

Again, what we have are people who have an agenda and they are trying to create reasons to use their predetermined solution, rail.

The solution is not to make the car less appealing. The solution is to give people less reason to need to drive to downtown. But that goes against some people's agenda.

If a city has employment, residential, and retail, there's little need for a daily commute.

Scot Walker, says:

"Thread synopsis:

1) Why should I pay for single mothers and homosexuals to ride the train? "

Ah, yes, portray those you disagree with as a biggot and you don't have to actually explain what you disagree with.

Sander Wolf, says:

The sales tax for DART was added to the normal sales tax. I remember when that happened. So you're saying we should instead use that penny for something else? Then basically, you're saying we should raise taxes by a penny. Novel for a republican. The DART issue is really unrelated. You can argue that DART is a waste of the sales tax, but that discussion needs to be separate from a discussion of whether Plano needs another 1% sales tax for general operations.

Jason Rice, says:

Personally, I've loved watching this argument. Learned a heck of a lot. Eletricron is a real find and I'll butt heads with you, palchik, any time.

I'd be lining up with Scot if we could do anything about it for the better part of a decade. Till then: other fish to fry.

Scot Walker, says:

"The sales tax for DART was added to the normal sales tax. I remember when that happened. So you're saying we should instead use that penny for something else?"

You didn't read the article, did you?

"However, it is very pretentious of you to basically declare that the voters had no idea what they were doing the last time they rejected a DART pull-out referendum by a 77% to 23% margin."

I'm saying the average Plano citizen has no idea how much it costs in real dollars nor do they know how many people actually ride it. This is because the Dallas Morning News and DART mislead people and don't report the whole story.

"I assure you that there were plenty of people advocating views identical to yours prior to that referendum in 1996"

That was 13 years ago and not relevant to the effects DART light rail has had on Plano since.

But my blog is very relevant today considering the rail proponents want to add a series of new taxes to Collin County residents, including a 10 cent gas tax increase and a $250 car registration fee, to pay for the expansion of rail.

"Maybe you would have been able to make a more convincing argument, or may you would have just found a way to suppress the comments of your opponents like you do on your Collin County Republican Blog. I tried to post an opposing view in the comments section of your blog, but apparently my post was rejected. Hmmm…."

Your comment was posted. Another comment talking about how it was idiotic, and in this thread, was rejected.

John McClelland, says:

You can't really use the argument "the few shouldn't pay for the many". Using that argument, as a gay man, I should not have to pay school property tax since I do not have children nor will I ever. But the reason I pay property tax for schools is to keep up the public school system, which drives up my property values, and to make sure there is a greater chance that a bunch of uneducated morons aren't out roaming the streets.

Mass transit is a similar case issue. We all pay for things like that to make our cities and counties a better place to live.

Scott Doyle, says:

as a gay man

Isn't there a list of things not to randomly blurt out while in the company of republicans? Surely this made it...

Wish I wasn't busy doing everything possible to keep the job in this recession, otherwise I'd weigh in more. Can't even read through everything atm. =(

Jason Rice, says:

I'm glad he reminds us. For the third time this quarter he showed up in the "Single Mothers" column and frankly, I try to discriminate a bit in my discriminating.

Scott Doyle, says:

Can only stay up long enough to address responses to my post.

*I'm not criticizing the sales tax method. What you quoted was me defining how much a penny sales tax actually is. In Plano, it's 25% of the entire city budget.*

And you're implying it's an absolute outrage the city used each penny earmarked for DART...on DART. My effectiveness comment was in regards to how well it's protected against your common politician who'd stab a small child if it meant more funding for their cause.

Can't knock the hustle on that one, they knew they'd need to keep the money for DART and succeeded. Glad that <a href="http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008/feb/07/dallas-state-senator-proposes-higher-gas-taxes/">John Carona character</a> doesn't have anything to do with this.

<i>Please don't portray me as someone who believes the world is flat. I am the one presenting actual numbers and facts. The fact remains that Plano is spending 25% of its entire budget so that 1% can take a train on the average weekday. <b>There is nothing flat Earth about that.</b></i>

Strongly disagree. You have an obviously high disdain for rail and I don't feel you bother looking past these hiccups to its full potential. If bottom-line were all that mattered we wouldn't have an EPA, any kind of environmental legislation, etc etc.

Think it's safe to say I'm far from an earth-hugging hippie, but I certainly feel the need for drastic change in how we treat it. Imo, solution to poor usage stats is to make rail more convenient rather than abandoning the concept altogether.

*You've ridden it only twice? So you are promoting something you yourself don't use?*

I said twice in the past week. Thanks for playing.

There are many alternatives to light rail.

Really? Please elaborate on them and point out how the optimal is a solid enough alternative to abandon our invested time, energy, resources and money into rail. After all, reallocating DART money to said alternative is probably a better use of everyone's time.

Chris Kidd, says:

Wow...this dead horse is still being beaten. I tell ya, the right-tilter mindset of "hands off" goverment should be used for everything is one of the prime reasons were experiencing the "economic mess" were in now. Bringing that back locally, when you start pulling funding for public services (Transit, Hospitals, police/fire, ect..) because your polyana idea of goverment should be small and compact is going to eventually come back and bite you in the backside.

Lets also face another fact: Plano is seeing a demographic shift, with Scots precious "Rich White Republicans" moving out in droves to other parts of the county and points elsewhere in the region, then being replaced by people of various ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds who do tend to vote more liberally. I think thats the real issue in this case, Scot is afraid that his political base is diminishing and he blames DART for this problem, all disguised as a "tax issue" to make it palitible for the masses.

Scot Walker, says:

"You can't really use the argument "the few shouldn't pay for the many". Using that argument, as a gay man, I should not have to pay school property tax since I do not have children nor will I ever."

I don't go with slippery slope arguments. I feel there is common sense restrictions for guns, for example, and abortion. I reject arguments that say, "Well, you pay for A so that means we have to pay for B." No, we evaluate the need, the cost, the benefit.

DART light rail does not make any measurable difference to traffic congestion or air quality and the cost of it is huge.

"Isn't there a list of things not to randomly blurt out while in the company of republicans? Surely this made it..."

Can't you just debate someone without denigrating them? Is Obama for gay marriage?

"And you're implying it's an absolute outrage the city used each penny earmarked for DART"

No, I'm not. That's a false statement on your part. I realize the city must give that penny to DART. I never argued otherwise.

"You have an obviously high disdain for rail and I don't feel you bother looking past these hiccups to its full potential"

Again, you are mischaracterizing my position. I am not against "rail". I have written an editorial about the effects of light rail in Plano and at what cost. Based on how many people it's carrying and how much it costs, it's my opinion Plano should get out of DART when they can. It's also my opinion that Allen, McKinney and Frisco should think twice before leaping.

"If bottom-line were all that mattered we wouldn't have an EPA, any kind of environmental legislation, etc etc."

All I'm getting from you is hyperbole and ad hominem – emotion. You aren't standing on logical footing here with your debate.

The effectiveness of an expensive solution is all that matters, yes. If it's not doing what it is supposed to do, you move onto something else. You don't spend money on something just because of how it makes you feel, which is what liberal Democrats tend to do. It's not about consequences or effectiveness, it's about how they like trains and it's so European and like being in a city, oh boy!! :)

alexander troup, says:

I am just ready to drink a gallon of gas and run down the street my self when they raise the price of the rail to 5 dollars in Septemeber 2009.....A/T...bubbas blue ford, with tennis shoes...

Scot Walker, says:

Wow, what a shock. I'm accused of being a racist. How original of you, chris. That's not change, Chris. That's old-school politics where you vilify your opponent and try to destroy them versus addressing the issues. Hope? Change?

Nothing you said refutes the fact that DART light rail is ineffective and a huge waste of tax dollars in Plano.

alexander troup, says:

I will drink 5 gallons of gas to prove I can be human efficent or better then an electric car.....A/T,..Human freak, become transportation

Jason Rice, says:

Chris - you talk about "Plano Whiteness" as if you'd been there.

Come join me for my kids' swim class next week. These families are here for the same things... and it AIN'T to donate money to a transit system they can't use.

Scott Doyle, says:

*Can't you just debate someone without denigrating them? Is Obama for gay marriage?*

Can't you just take a joke?

Besides, I'm not trying to debate you...that would involve far more of my time than I'm willing to give you. I don't live in Plano, and I don't buy useless crap at their retail outlets. Crusade all you want, imo, just don't get so butthurt when people don't 100% agree with your rants.

*I am not against "rail".*

Care to take a poll of readers who think you are based on this op-ed?

*The effectiveness of an expensive solution is all that matters, yes. If it's not doing what it is supposed to do, you move onto something else.*

I don't recall you declaring what qualifies as "what it's supposed to do". If it's in comments I didn't read, well, tough.

Even if 10% of the pop used DART at this very moment, you'd probably still rant and rave that until rider % evens out with city budget % it's a crime to fund. Which, btw, if that 25% were included in the budget it would only account for 20% of the overall monies. =p

*You don't spend money on something just because of how it makes you feel...*

I don't disagree. You have yet to list viable alternatives you apparently feel would be money better spent. Mass transit isn't going to just vanish because it costs money - rather than smearing DART to the best of your ability, a productive approach might be giving surrounding areas considering DART something else to throw money at.

Scott Doyle, says:

Let the bears pay the bear tax!

I pay the Homer tax.

Scot Walker, says:

"Besides, I'm not trying to debate you...that would involve far more of my time than I'm willing to give you."

Your 868 words in this thread say you do have time.

"Crusade all you want, imo, just don't get so butthurt when people don't 100% agree with your rants."

I have obviously discussed the issues with people who disagree with me with no problem, obviously. But I won't be shut down by the typical "racist" accusations and ad hominem comments. If you think I'm wrong, you'll have to actually make a relevant point.

"Care to take a poll of readers who think you are based on this op-ed?"

Wow, excellent point. What if I took a poll of the readers of this article about whether or not I like rail. I bet a whole bunch of them would think I hate rail. And? Your point?

The point is there is light rail and heavy rail. Light rail carries fewer people at slower speeds and is typically used in low density areas.

Heavy rail carries a lot more people at higher speeds and is used in very dense places like New York, London, Chicago. I have no problem with those rail systems.

"I don't recall you declaring what qualifies as "what it's supposed to do". If it's in comments I didn't read, well, tough."

Well, you don't read well then. I have stated many times it doesn't make a measurable difference on traffic congestion or air quality.

"Even if 10% of the pop used DART at this very moment, you'd probably still rant and rave that until rider % evens out with city budget %."

Maybe I would maybe I wouldn't. So what? That doesn't change the fact it's 1%.

"Which, btw, if that 25% were included in the budget it would only account for 20% of the overall monies."

Nope. Operating budget was $194 million with $63 million DART. $63 million is 24.513% of $257 million.

"You have yet to list viable alternatives you apparently feel would be money better spent."

Yes I did.

"Mass transit isn't going to just vanish because it costs money - rather than smearing DART to the best of your ability, a productive approach might be giving surrounding areas considering DART something else to throw money at."

I did that in my blog. I suggest Plano do what Frisco, Allen and McKinney do and use that penny for an economic incentive corporation and a community improvement fund. That would get rid of the multimillion dollar deficit and Plano would be able to hire police and fire versus cut them.

I also said Plano could create their own bus system for less than Denton County's $8.6 million.

I also said that putting all the jobs in the center of a spoked wheel design is antiquated. We need to put more jobs in the suburbs, and Plano and Frisco are doing just that. With the economic incentive fund, though, Plano could draw even more HQs.

But you don't have time to debate, so maybe you missed that.

Scott Doyle, says:

Your 868 words in this thread say you do have time.

If you actually bothered getting a count of my words, you have far too much time. I'm a busy guy who has to make time for this b.s. My presence on the site is considerably down from this time last year and I only stick around b/c I enjoy the community.

I have obviously discussed the issues with people who disagree with me with no problem, obviously.

Straight from the Dept. of Redundancy Department! You brow-beat anybody of a different opinion with insanely long comments that few are willing to read in their entirety. But, at least you rock paragraph breaks - more power to you.

Wow, excellent point.

Glad we agree. Communication is a two-way street, friend...if the receiver's perception differs from the sender's intent, you're boned.

*I have stated many times it doesn't make a measurable difference on traffic congestion or air quality.*

Measurable, or significant? Quite different imo. What would you consider a success on their part?

Nope. Operating budget was $194 million with $63 million DART. $63 million is 24.513% of $257 million.

Touche, I only saw your percentage discussion.

Yes I did.

Being buses? Not a viable alternative for anybody needing to get to downtown Dallas from Plano, imo. Or vice versa if you want more HQ's up thurr. Believe it or not, people who live in Dallas might have jobs outside of Dallas. Personally, I live in north Dallas and work in Richardson. Were it in Plano I'd strongly consider biking to the DART rail.

*But you don't have time to debate, so maybe you missed that.*

Goddamn right. You spend a good portion of your time blogging on this, I skim because I don't live in the burbs. To each his own.

Chris Kidd, says:

Jason, Yes I know of the white bread and mayo sandwich eaters of good ol boy plano ;) I used to live at tollway/frankford and got out as fast as I could. I also know the area up in richardson/plano has changed dramatically over the past decade when it comes to population and demographics, im just not agreeing with scot, as he seems to browbeat anyone who doesnt march to his right-tilting agenda of putting more cars on the road.

I guess I find it odd that classic American conservative roots (not the modern neo-con agenda, which are more John Birch/Joe Mccarthy-based)are in the concepts of conservation, whos biggest name was President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt, a noted naturalist, champion of the environment and the father of the national park system. He believed that the outdoors should be protected for all, that the skies should be clean and clear. I think in this day and age he would've supported rail travel, such as DART, due to the fact it takes cars off of the road that pollute. I guess what I don't get is why so-called conservatives attempt to live up to that enviromental example.

So tell me scot, why dont you?

Scot Walker, says:

Chris,

Yes, just because I'm pointing out how many people are actually using light rail in Plano and at what costs means I'm a racist who doesn't care about the environment. That's pretty much your only argument, isn't it? It's not very compelling. Go on believing everyone who lives in the suburbs are racist White Republicans. Hope. Change. Tolerant. Open-minded. Um, yeah.

Scott,

Simply copy and paste into Word and you get a word count.

To me, spending 25% of your operating budget so 1% can take the train is a waste of money. I realize that this is subjective and maybe you think it's worth it. I don't really know what percentage would persuade me that it's effective. 10%? 20%? I'm not sure. What I do believe is that 1-2% isn't worth 25% of the city budget.

Scott Doyle, says:

Scot,

I'm well aware it's simple to get a count, but if you're crying about peeps being wasteful...you certainly could have done something better with those couple of minutes.

Agree to disagree, I guess - you feel Plano should abort altogether, I feel they should work towards making light rail more convenient for the tax-base since they've already gone down that path. Since it's a penny tax, the % of Plano budget approach seems stretched...but keep on keepin' on.

Concur with Miko, at least this is a reasonable discussion relatively void of poo-flinging. I should disagree with Scot on other issues - keep the content partner posts comin'!

Chris Kidd, says:

Scot, so to appease the ends to your personal means, you want to cut off a viable transit service that is most certainly used by more than the 1% of plano-ites (or is it plano-nians?) you suggest it targets? No offense, but im not sure your numbers are correct. Ive seen plenty of people both on weekdays and weekends who user DART Rail to come to/get out of Plano, I also have a very good friend who lives in a condo near the station and states the actual occupancy rate is much higher than you suggest. I'll agree that Condo/Retail developments all along the rail has been mixed bag, but you dont blame DART or the city for that, you blame the property developer for not targeting the proper demographic.

Have you also considered that the Plano Station is also being used and fares collected by people in points north of your area (McKinney, Frisco, Sherman/Denison) as well? Theres quite a bit of traffic coming in the mornings and they still contributes to the city and county tax base. So to say that the city/county gets nothing out of the deal is really moot.

Lastly, when bringing up terms of race and the environment, I meant it as example of a 1950's-era mindset that ive noticed the more conservative folks in Collin Co. seem to cling onto and not a slap at your personal character. If it came off that way, I apologize. I think we should be more civil to each other when it comes to dissagreeing. I will, however, stick to my guns on my views concerning what true conservatives should attain themselves and not play to a stereotype of the country club exclusionary crowd.

Jason Rice, says:

Oh, and ScoDo, you're right at 7683 characters, of which only 194 are capital letters.

Hope that helps.

Like this discussion a LOT.... oh except for the mayo flinging. (I'll get you yet, Dangerman)

Chris Kidd, says:

Jason, Dont get me started about your failed hairplugs LOL ;)

Scott Doyle, says:

Lot of claims made there with no citation whatsoever...

Scott Doyle, says:

That 3rd one (pdf) actually looks like a decent read. Maybe on a flight. =p

Scott Doyle, says:

So, out with it...I severely doubt you bothered with all of this because you got bored one year. What's your true role in all of this?

Scot Walker, says:

Thanks, interestedcitizen!

Scot Walker, says:

Thanks, interestedcitizen! klue,

"The most blatant innaccuracy - you keep saying Plano is spending 25% of it's revenue to fund something only 1% uses. First of all, it's not 25% of the city's total revenue. It's 25% of the sales tax."

You are wrong.

The sales tax cap in Texas is 8.25%. The state takes 6.25%. The city of Plano gets 1%. DART gets the other 1%. That means Plano is giving 50% of it's sales tax revenue to DART.

The 25% figure I have reported is the percentage of Plano's operating budget that they give to DART. Plano's operating budget is around $210 million, last I checked. Add the $60 million to that figure and it's 25% of the total operating budget.

"You've left out property taxes, various city fees and charges, not to mention the considerable amount of money Plano"

No, I haven't. Plano gets $60 million from sales tax (that it keeps), around $80 million from property tax, etc. It adds up to around $210 million today.

"Second of all, the 1% share transit riders is a figure that is based on the whole region."

No, the 3,000 figure is based on the two stations in Plano from information I have gathered from news clippings and DART's own (misleading) statements.

The entire DART light rail line is 1.5% based on their reported figure of 68,000 trips, which is 31,000 people, in a member city population of 2.1 million.

I'm not including all the people in non-DART member cities who use the light rail. If I included them, the % for Plano would be smaller.

"Almost all of the 3000 people who take the train from Plano do so durring rush hour, the most critical time to get cars off the road. It may not seem significant to you in terms of percentages, but even an extra 500 cars per hour during rush hour can make the difference between a crowded but moving system, and a complete deadlock on 75."

Wrong. There is no 1:1 ration between riders and cars off the road because a huge percentage of people riding the train would be riding the bus if there was no train, so there is no car taken off the road.

The number of cars taken off of 75 because of Plano's DART is between 700-1,000 between 3pm - 7pm. The number of cars going in one direction on four lanes of freeway is 11,000 per hour, which would be 44,000 between 3pm and 7pm. Taking 700-1,000 cars off of 75 out of 44,000 makes no measurable difference on the commute time.

And as I have already said, light rail costs so much money it actually hurts bus service, which carries a lot more people. It hurts more than it helps in many, many ways.

"You say that 1% doesn't impact our air quality. Indeed it does. We aren't just talking about 3000 or so cars less on the system. we're talking about 3000 cars less "

Wrong. Again, we aren't taking 3,000 cars off the road.

And you are ignoring the amount of pollution put into the air by the power plants creating the electricity for all those electric trains.

"or two... this (unfortunately) isn't jusst about the air we breathe. It's about money too. The DFW region has consistantly had poor air quality that "squeaks past" federal standards. We've already been flagged as a non-conforming region, which means that every thing we do... every plan we make, has to prove that ensure air quality that meets stadards"

DART has made no measurable difference on this over the last 7 years, otherwise you'd be pointing to all the good news since we started spending millions on it.

Replace all the coal power plants with a few nuclear power plants and your air pollution problem is gone - period.

The typical commuter car will become electric way before any rail system in North Texas carries enough people to make an impact, at no cost to the taxpayer.

"If we don't have a significant public transit plan, not only will this continue to be an optionless-everybody-has-to-drive-a-car-or-get-the-heck-out-of-texas place to live, it will also be a place that stops recieving any federal money for any transportation projects whatsoever."

I'd much rather pay tolls for roads that actually get built, and get built on time, than I would have California-like taxation for no measurable effect.

That's the problem with rail advocates - they ignore the results and still argue with emotion.

"You're "solution" for Plano's budgetary woes that didn't include raising taxes or decreasing service... isn't feasible. The penny collected is a penny over total allowable sales tax rates. It is ONLY permited by state law because it's going to fund public transit. "

Wrong again. Read my blog. I go into that in great detail. Frisco, Allen, McKinney have the 1% sales tax Plano has, but they also have a .5% economic incentive fund and a community investment fund for roads. If Plano did the same thing, they wouldn't have had to raise property taxes in 2006 to create its own economic incentive fund and it would have plenty of money for road improvements, parks.

Scot Walker, says:

Klue,

I read my post and my "wrong" comes off as rude. I didn't mean to be rude. I respect your opinion and I appreciate adult conversations on these issues.

Sorry! :)

Scot

Scot Walker, says:

I just noticed that DART's budget PDF isn't live text (which could be searched and indexed). Instead, they have printed out their report and then scanned the pages in so that the PDF text is an image versus live text on your computer.

I guess they have something to hide. From what I've read, this is very typical of DART.

Jason Rice, says:

::they have something to hide

Now, Scot. Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Either way, your point is easily made.