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Monday, May 4, 2009
Parking near Lower Greenville in Dallas about to get worse
By the end of the summer, the BelmontNA will have achieved its goal of taking back all the residential streets within two blocks of Greenville on the east side.
For nearly ten years, one issue has been the top hot-button on Lower Greenville - parking, in all its forms.
Parking means more than spaces for the drunks to park their cars (you don't really believe they get here sober, do you?). It means more income for the property owners (not the bars), lots of income.
The business operators know the City Code requires free parking for patrons, but good luck finding it. There are not enough parking spaces for the number of businesses (legal and illegal) and their patrons (sober and not). It's too expensive when you can find it, and the neighborhood streets are off-limits to non-residents.
Hold on to your keys, folks, it's about to get worse. You might want to consider changing your party plans. As in, what's hot in Addison (besides smoking) tonight?
In the past few weeks, the major Lower Greenville property owners - Madison Partners and Andres Properties - have seized control of the last few independent parking lots and valet stands close to Greenville Avenue. Except for two self-park lots on Alta near Summit, Whole Foods and Pietros, every parking space in the Lower Greenville area is controlled by one valet service company, which is in turn controlled by the property owners. You may give your keys to a valet at Char Bar, but that does not mean your car will be parked nearby.
The average valet fee is $10 - simply for the pleasure of having some kid with zits park your car. God forbid, they are not charging you for parking in the space that is supposed to be free, they are charging you for the kid driving to the space that is supposed to be free.
If you are going to a bar not leasing from either of these landlords, the price is even higher. An Eight Lounge patron trying to park her car in a small lot near Firestone on Lewis Street was told it would cost $20 for parking.
So where can you park now? Don't bother with parking in the neighborhoods - between the BelmontNA on the east and Lowest Greenville NA on the west, there are 13 Resident Parking Only zones around Lower Greenville (plus one on Vickery Blvd. near Terelli's and another on McCommas at Greenville. Unless you live on that street and have the right hangtag in your car window, don't even think about parking on any residential street - on Friday evening alone, five cars were towed off these protected streets.
It's gonna get harder to find an open residential street - another street goes RPO this week (1700 Hope Street @ Ross) and two more close to Lower Greenville will be approved in a few weeks. By the end of the summer, the BelmontNA will have achieved its goal of taking back all the residential streets within two blocks of Greenville on the east side.
A note to the drunks who think they have a god-given right park on our streets - You do not live here, you do not own property here, and you probably do not live in Dallas, so nobody who does live down here cares what you think.
But all is not lost! There is plenty of free parking on streets north of the old Whole Foods block, and you can be sure the Lower Greenville NA will never ever allow any of their streets to go RPO. That would absolutely offend their sponsors owning the restaurants in Middle Greenville. Click here for a list of all the free parking streets.
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burlyqueen, says:
Is this the end of Lower Greenville as we know it? Umm, I think so.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
"(you don't really believe they get here sober, do you?)"
I'd argue that if there is drunk driving going on, it happens when they're leaving, not when they're arriving.
"nobody who does live down here cares what you think."
I'm guessing the people who I give money to in exchange for alcohol probably care quite a bit about what I think.
Also, as an fyi, I like going out and drinking, and I've got two legs in more or less working condition. So do lots of other people. Extending the parking zones a few blocks will just mean drunks walking a few blocks further, giving them a few more blocks to do whatever it is Avi's scared of them doing.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
jtmbls, says:
No burly, this is a bored, angry little man making (once again) a big deal about nothing. Seriously, who doesn't valet their cars? It's almost the only viable option anywhere you go in Uptown and even Addison.
Get a life you pathetic little troll!
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Scott Doyle, says:
Ummm, seems the only thing that changed is pay lot ownership and one tiny little street down south. Otherwise, same as it was...doesn't really affect us, Pavel.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
"<i>Seriously, who doesn't valet their cars?</i>"
I'd reverse the question and ask, "who does?", but I already know the answer: people with a surplus of money and a shortage of functional ambulatory appendages.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Scott Doyle, says:
You do not live here, you do not own property here, and you probably do not live in Dallas
And you don't own the street. For those of us living in Dallas, you're a tool for bogarting property our taxes help pay for.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
jtmbls, says:
No Pavel, try females. Especially when driving alone to meet friends. It's more of a safety thing than an "I'm too good to walk" thing.
We can't all have pink mowhawks to ward-off evil doers.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
jtmbls, says:
Isn't it a good thing when people who aren't from Dallas spend their money here? A little something called revenue??
Between lost revenues and the city wages of the DPD officers he wastes the time of, I would say this person does not have the best interest of our city at heart and has become more of a problem to Dallas than anything he has been complaining about.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
jtmbls - you're right, I didn't think about that.
Although, there's really nothing stopping you from rocking a 'hawk - except maybe a job, opinions of valued friends and family, and societal norms, I guess. Pfft.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoJesus Valadez, says:
I never valet my car...
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Mike Orren, says:
chrisdanger, I don't think ethnicity/religion is relevant here.
Staff
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Rawlins Gilliland, says:
Well, I didn't have to valet park when I ate at Dodie's Cajun seafood cafe (across the street from the carcass of the demised Whole Foods and near the scorched earth that was once Nuevo Leon and The Arcadia Theater which is just up from where Poor David’s stood for years) the other night where that fried seafood platter was like being carried up the stairs in an angel's arms and laid upon a lavish mattress designed for culinary love-making.
Otherwise, valet parking on lower Greenville strikes me at first blush like wearing a dinner jacket to eat ribs or a swim suit in the bathtub. Asking, ‘Do you have nachos?’ at the French Room. Reading the Bible on Kindle2 at Souper Salads. Attending a Jessica Simpson film festival. Kosher Grape Nuts.
BUT: Considering that last year, people were towed even after being told by the business owners that they were parking legally (Via PegasusNews hotflashes), I'd valet pay to play knowing that there is some accountability / certainty that you will have a car at the end of your Street of Dreams pilgrimage.
Me? Back to Deep Ellum where the spaces are many and the eat-and-drink options as open as a grinning hippo's jaws. Jeez.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Tracy Yost, says:
Not to nitpick, but as I understand city code, parking is required, but FREE parking is not.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Chris Kidd, says:
Mike and everyone else, I apologize for the previous comment. This damn guy gets on my nerves but the term I used wasnt called for.
My issue is the fact this guy has offically chased all the decent businesses in the neighborhood because of his near-facists beliefs on business zoning and parking, not to mention wastes my tax dollars on false alarm calls to the DPD and setting up his precious parking dictatorship. If people want to knowingly live in a neighborhood near an entertainment district(Club, Bar, Restaurant), they need to realize people are going to park on the streets nearby, suck it up and grow a pair. If Avi wants to be a real force for good, perhaps he and the neighborhood association should purchase a lot for parking, since whole foods moved, theres a lot available and maybe form a non-conforntational partnership w/ the remaining businesses to help co-fund the lot.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
Well, one point that Avi made is that he's been living there since before Lower Greenville was an apparent mecca to miscreants. So, sure, he may have the right to grumble that the neighborhood ain't what it used to be.
But hey, look at that, progress. Things change.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
That is SOOO unfair. I step out for lunch and miss something I could hold over chris's head forever....
I mean, I personally try to rile CD to the point of cussing and this could have been a Grail for me, a goal, a pinnacle to which I aspire. Alas.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
jtmbls, says:
Don't think I haven't thought about it a few times Pavel, but yes, a job and something about being called "mom" seems to snap me back into my conformist reality. =(
I can remember ages ago when a new dance club opened down the street from this guys house, the Dallas Police showed up THREE times on a Saturday night to tell the owner to turn down the music. I remember thinking how ridiculous and how unfortunate to puchase a business and then be blindsided by this horrible little person.
I don’t know that much about the area but judging by DCAD, was he really there before the bars? Having a hard time buying that one.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Rawlins Gilliland, says:
Ever notice how any thread or article or anything media related to Lower Greenville becomes quickly in comments a de facto referendum on Avi Adelman; a man whose cause is arguably just but whose tactics are widely questioned? At some point, that point speaks for itself.
Meanwhile: I parked on Vickery legally and went to Terreli's years ago: My car was broken into and I was robbed. You park somewhere else and you're towed. You valet park at hit-and-miss operations from Gloria's on down and the spontaneity and neighborhood ease and economy of LG becomes compromised.
Pavel, As for anyone's tenure in the area per Lower Greenville pre-dating these ongoing business/homeowner conflicts, LG was already a recognized hip-happening area for years when I left in 1983, and I suspect but don't know, that busy neighborhood overspill parking issues predate Mr. Adelman's personal crusade.
For what that's worth.
The liklihood that mr. Avelman's area was a sleepy neighborhood normal when he bought there sounds unlikely. I'm a native of that area, as I've said. So I would be in a position to know if the 'progress' you allude to took place in fact after the current settlers settled in.
Be that as it may:
Meanwhile, reading these threads / and-or crime events (said to be anomalies but if occuring in other parts of the city would become red flag stigmas); to characterize what has happened to and in Lower Greenville in this century as 'progress', (no matter which side of the argument one stands) strikes me as an atomic Lycra stretch. In fact, one would be hard pressed to not see LG currently as a diminsishing return shadow of it's 80s-90s self. And hopefully/probably the valet parking being unified and standardized (and yes probably a monopoly but controlable/predictable) can be part of the solution to solve some festering problems some people still insist are imagined.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
I can't really cite the source, because I don't remember where I read it; I thought it was in a comment Avi left on the site, but I'm too lazy to Google around for it.
I think the reason these threads become basic attacks on Avi is because he's the only grump I'm aware of who speaks out on the issue. Maybe his whole neighborhood feels this way, but they never seem to comment here or write blogs of their own. I wonder if Barking Dogs has a circulation beyond PN; you would think he would ask some of his neighbors to lend their point of view here on this site - I'd like to hear what they think about the issue.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Chris Kidd, says:
I say everyone generally agrees, Avi is a bitter old guy. He's the same old fart who'd prolly gripe about crabgrass or somebodys dog pooping on his lawn if he didnt live off of belmont and have all the "rable-rousers" coming to his neighborhood on weekends. I say turn a blind eye to him and he'll dissappear...
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
...Or plant some crabgrass next door
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
burlyqueen, says:
Death to crabgrass.....
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
I'm willing to donate some for the cause.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
rinea, says:
So does anyone know if all the streets within the BelmontNA neighborhood that aren't specifically listed on the RPO map (like Lewis street) are still up for parking grabs? Also, does anyone know if the two self-park lots on Alta near Summit are free or not? And where the heck was the old Whole Foods located? Personally, I think Lower Greenville is kinda slimy and lame, but it's good when there's nothing better to do.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
jtmbls, says:
Depends on how low you go. Lowest Greenville can be a little scary but a little further up is still pretty cool. IMO
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush, says:
I doubt Avi is concerned with restaurants closing..he's got enough lard around the neck to feed himself for years..
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jesus Valadez, says:
OOOOOooh snapz
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
I have never considered Lower Greenville scary in the least. I guess a hobo's never rushed me there, though.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks ago(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoMike Orren, says:
LGresident, we run Avi's stuff because he writes about neighborhood issues -- and we're a big tent when it comes to that. I may not agree with everything he says, but we are committed to providing a forum for these sorts of topics and open discussion on them.
However, we don't allow publishing of allegations like you included without some verification. We'll look into it, and if it's a.) true and b.) relevant, get back on it.
Pavel, only removed your comment because it was responsive to LGresident's.
Staff
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
LGresident, says:
Mike, I completely respect your actions on this blog. However, when are you guys going to publish positive publicity on Lower Greenville? I just feel many writers utilize Greenville Ave when they have nothing else to write about. Lower Greenville has improved tremendously in the past few years. I personally know a lot of business owners sinking thousands of dollars on Lower Greenville with efforts of making it an upscale safe atmosphere. Sure it is taking some time, but it will eventually get there before you all realize it.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Mike Orren, says:
Sounds great, LGresident. Why don't you put something together and we'll be happy to publish it.
Staff
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
LGresident, says:
I will work on it. I strongly feel that positive publicity on Lower Greenville will bring positive people. All this negative publicity attracts the bad element that love to be video taped and published on crappy sites. What would happen to the people that make a living out of writing bad things about Lower Greenville? Hopefully, they will use their time to do something useful for the city.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
burlyqueen, says:
As a former resident of lower Greenville (right by the restaurants, bars and denizen hangouts) I can understand why the residents want to take back the streets. It’s not fun to watch your street be turned into a parking lot and heart wrenching when your beloved pet cat is sacrificed to the drunken moron that races 70mph down your street at 10pm. Yes, yes, I also understand the other side of the argument; if you don’t like it, don’t live in Lower Greenville. (Kinda like if you don’t like to pay overpriced property taxes, don’t live in Highland Park) That is probably why we moved to the other side of the lake. Problem is; it takes us 30 minutes to get around the lake to reach civilization. I guess if I don’t like it, I can always move back to lower Greenville. Le sigh…..
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
LGresident, says:
Burlyqueen, Once the improvements we are striving for are accomplished, you will be dying to move back to Lower Greenville.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
Are there people really zooming around the entire neighborhood? It's a big area, and when I'm there, I basically make a bee-line down Matilda or Greenville, turn off and park. I'm not cruising the neighborhoods looking for kitties to assault or lawns to throw up on...
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Chris Kidd, says:
Burly, I understand as I live in deep ellum. But, I knew moving down here I was going to be living above two restaurants, both which get noisy on weekend nights. I think folks dont take those things into account when they move into the M streets.
LG, I think the big issue I and othersof take issue w/ involving Avi is the fact he's got a bone to pick w/ everyone and has pulled his "hustle" w/ quite a few of the local businesses in the past. I agree the neighborhood deserves some respect, no doubt. But when you have a guy like that as a neighbor who cant keep up his lawn or goes near-facists on his plans to dictate where people can park, you have to wonder why people take a dim view of your area.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Chris Kidd, says:
Burly, I understand as I live in deep ellum. But, I knew moving down here I was going to be living above two restaurants, both which get noisy on weekend nights. I think folks dont take those things into account when they move into the M streets.
LG, I think the big issue I and othersof take issue w/ involving Avi is the fact he's got a bone to pick w/ everyone and has pulled his "hustle" w/ quite a few of the local businesses in the past. I agree the neighborhood deserves some respect, no doubt. But when you have a guy like that as a neighbor who cant keep up his lawn or goes near-facists on his plans to dictate where people can park, you have to wonder why people take a dim view of your area.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush, says:
"One neighborhood association (Lower Greenville NA) is paid off by the bars an undisclosed but obscene amount of money (we think it's 30 pieces of silver) to plant the No Parking signs."
http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2009/...
Shall we talk about unsubstantiated claims? I guess it takes special permission to do that kind of thing.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Mike Orren, says:
Travis, there's degrees on these sort of things-- and we live by the imperfect but workable "<a href="http://library.findlaw.com/2003/May/15/132747.html">know it when we see it</a>" rule.
Staff
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Andrew, says:
I have been very critical of Avi lately, its more about his tactics than his goal, however, there are no simple answers to "fix" lower greenville. We need to balance the problems with the good things. Should Lower Greenville be like the West Village? Of course not. Should some of the crooked business be forced to clean up? Of course.
Are RPO zones the answer? I am not sure. I think that it just puts more money into the hands of the valets and pushes parking farther into the neighborhood. We need to focus on the actual problems, rather than whether or not the trouble makers can park.
Repeat violations are the problem, not the one offs. One day of music at Good Records is not the same as a murder at Sekret Lounge. I love the area as a resident and as a patron. The city and its representatives need to start a proactive campaign which partners with the businesses to fix the problems and leave the fun.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
::30 pieces of silver
Man, How much more substantiated does it have to get?
<font size="1">Granted, the whisper mode <strike><strike></strike> was not fully invoked, but geez!</font>
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
David_Wilson, says:
Please allow another lower greenville resident to jump in here.
I live on the 5800 block of Prospect, which is next to Matilda Avenue and one block from Greenville Avenue. I am a renter in a five-plex. I moved here in March of this year. RPO was in place already when I got here.
I am glad that there is RPO on this street. I have seen how bad things get when you don't have it, like on Wednesday nights when there are no RPO rules - hard to find a parking space on your own street, beer bottles, and noise.
I have talked to my landlord - he said he did not sign the petition for RPO because he did not want to take the decision away from his tenants. Three out of five signed the papers.
I dont consider RPO anti-business. The bars have enough parking but they just charge too much (as I learned when I lived in the White Rock Lake area and partied down here).
The City controls the streets and lets the people who live there decide what to do with them, if there are enough signatures on the petition. If someone does not live down here, then I guess they need to stop complaining??
I have an hispanic family next door and their son tells me that the RPO makes a big difference. They have lived here for 40 years (he grew up and moved out like most Hispanic sons when he got married) and says the difference is very obvious.
I have not met this Avi guy but I know he walks his dogs on my street and talks to the police once in a while. He's always talking to my neighbors when he sees them on the porch. If he's the butthead you say he is, then he must be schizo online.
Like I said, RPO is working for me. If it wasn't, I figure we can work to get rid of it.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
LGresident, says:
If you visit Lower Greenville there are plenty of parking spaces around the area. There are so many that there is no need for anyone to have to park in the neighborhoods. As a resident and business owner I feel that these valet companies need to disappear. If they were not there, parking would be free and available for everyone to enjoy. I say free, not in a neighborhood, parking for everyone. Business would boom, neighbors would be happy, and the city woudl be happy.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
alexander troup, says:
I just ride my bike to the area, have lost intrest since they closed down Whole Food's and realize...downtown is no better...you have a car it is a cash cow for the City Of Dallas....A/T, HENRY FORD and my MODEL T where are we.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush, says:
Dammit, Mike! I just spit tea on my dam monitor...I would have loved to hear the Justices debating that one...I understand where you are coming from, but it is important to mention the op-ed isn't above saying things he can't prove.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jasen Chavez, says:
Meh-screw Lower Greenville lets all meet at the Londener in Addison when I get back in town.. In truth Greenville has always had a special place in my heart though. Billiard Bar was my first bar in Dallas when I moved here. Also the first time I had my truck towed cause I was picking people up at The Beagle cause I was the DD, lesson learned parking in all of Dallas is f$%^#d up. Sad to see its not getting any better.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
Lower Greenville is one of the few places in Dallas that I know of where you can actually barhop without calling a cab or walking a mile between bars. Even Addison doesn't really have that kind of density, unless you count restaurants that happen to serve alcohol - and even then...
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
Guys - Plano E. 15th street....
Fillmore's, Vickery Park, Jorg's, Kelly's East Side and a couple more in the next two months - all within two blocks... stumble off the DART and pass out in a much cleaner gutter
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Scott Doyle, says:
Is it your gutter? I'm not sure any other will suffice.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush, says:
Yes..and we'll probably need your address so we can pee on your lawn...
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
Unlike some that must be where the action is... You'd be stumbling 5.5 miles to my gutter.
But upon getting here, you'll be pleased to find the storm drain right near my house so you can slip quietly into a stupor and roll effortlessly under the street.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
LGresident, says:
Lower Greenville is the only place to hang out in Dallas.
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
That's why I'm in Plano, good sir or madame ;o)
I've spent many a find time a decade ago in your yard, but... not so much lately.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Travis Bush, says:
Maybe Belmont St. needs a moat.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
(This comment was removed by the site staff.)
Anonymous
10 months, 2 weeks agoTravis Bush, says:
Hrmmm...seems like there is a bot attack.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Jason Rice, says:
Automaton's are most often the content ones.
And vice-versa
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
Pavel Lishin, says:
Fillmore's is nice, but Kelly is a little too country for my tastes. Never even heard of the others.
It's not bad, but it's just not the type of barhopping experience I'm looking for. A cleaner gutter has no hold over me.
Verified
10 months, 2 weeks agoLink to this comment | Suggest removal
What do you think?