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Saturday, February 16, 2008

McKinney Tavern reacts early to smoking ban

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In addition to yellow teeth and lung cancer, smoking apparently causes blindness.

In addition to yellow teeth and lung cancer, smoking apparently causes blindness.

— A ring of smokers stood outside the McKinney Tavern Wednesday night, their cigarettes glowing in the frigid and blustery evening air.

“I’m not happy about it,” said Al Carr, a self-described Tavern regular. “Why run off all your business now? Everybody is going to have to do it in September anyway. Doing it now just doesn’t make any sense.”

Carr was referring to the Tavern’s new proactive smoking ban, one that the establishment self-imposed January 1.

The Tavern didn’t have to curtail smoking so soon. As of January 1, only new restaurants in town are mandated to enforce the city’s new no-smoking policy while preexisting establishments have until Sept. 4 to enforce the new law.

“We told [our customers] it was going to come,” John Volpe, co-owner of McKinney Tavern said. “We’re trying to get the kinks out before September, so we’ll know how it works, so we’ll be in compliance rather than have to change at the last minute and risk running into problems.”

The ordinance bans smoking in all public places and enclosed places of employment within the city including retail stores, offices, restaurants, all means of public transit, museums, theaters, public parks, hospitals and common use areas in apartments and other buildings.

The ordinance allows smoking in private residences, including porches, yard areas and personal automobiles. Smoking is also allowed in outdoor places of employment, public sidewalks and parking lots within public parks that are more than 25 feet from a door or window.

Tavern co-owner Bob Volpe, John’s brother, is a former 30-year smoker. Bob, 67-years-old, said the city’s smoking ban reminded him of the times he used to fly and was asked to sit in the back of the plane to do his smoking, something he defiantly refused to do.

“It reminded me of the time when people were told to sit in the back of the bus,” Bob said, referring to the indignities African-Americans suffered before the civil rights movement.

City councilman Bill Cox, who voted against the smoking ban last fall, said he empathizes with those who appreciate breathing smoke-free air when out in public. But Cox is also a firm believer in freedom of choice.

“The reason I voted against ordinance - I think it certainly is one’s right to spend their money in a restaurant that allows smoking , just like it’s one’s right to choose a restaurant that doesn’t allow smoking,” Cox, a non-smoker, said. “One should have the right as a customer and as a business owner to make the smoking decision and I don’t feel it’s the government’s role to determine that.”

The brothers Volpe are making plans to build a covered patio area for smoking customers, but with the “25 feet from a door or window” qualification in the city’s mandate, they’re not entirely sure their plans will meet the city’s strict non-smoking guidelines.

“Look at all the windows we’ve got,” Bob said. “I’m not sure if we can build a patio. Does this mean we’ve got to build 25 feet from the building?”

John, a smoker, said he hopes that a partially weatherproof smoking patio can be built to satisfy the city’s requirements while keeping his smoking customers comfortable and happy.

“Right now I’m out there on the street with the rest of [the smokers],” he said with a grin. “We’d like to build a patio with a roof, something to protect you from the winter cold and the summer heat.”

Meanwhile, smoking regulars at the Tavern are trying to make do with the new restriction – for the time being.

“I feel like, ‘Where’s our rights?’ Eileen Carr said as she took another drag off her quickly disappearing Virginia Slims in the darkness that encased the Tavern's front sidewalk. “What’s the government going to do next?”

Eileen and her husband, Al, said they’d roll with the punches when all of McKinney becomes smoke free in September.

“We’ll be making our way to Addison or Richardson,” the two staunch smokers agreed. “There are other places to go.”


Pegasus News content partner - McKinneyNews.net

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Comments

FXR Anonymous

The practice of "managing diseases", the strategy adopted recently in public health partnerships, has now been accepted internationally in place of a legitimate search for medical cures, which could allay all fears. It is entirely curious at a time when those cures are finally coming within our grasp, they will be delayed once again. Disease Management as a strategy, can not avoid the underlying reality; you have to micro-manage the personal lives of individuals and promote segregation, hatred and bigotry within communities in order to make it effective. Ignorance of human rights and personal freedom can never be overlooked or simply ignored in hopes they will just go away.

The vote enabling a smoking ban, could more correctly be described as a vote on the public acceptance of bigotry. The same people who propose such laws ignore the fact they wear deodorants and perfumes rich in much higher concentrations of toxins than a cigarette could ever contain. The fresh air they covet is ripe with their choice of what they willingly inhale.

Someone who calls them self a smoker, are living the created lie which was necessary in separating them from the rest of the community, with widely brushed perspectives. You are a person with free will, who uses a product on the shelf along side deodorants deodorizers and perfumes all of which we all accept in life as a civil respect, and understanding of the choices others may make.

Second hand smoke [EBS] as a significant health risk, is no more real than the monster under your bed. A creation to sell fear; promoting irresponsibility, by coercive process. A reality which will reflect on all of us, in what other “protections” we will accept as moral and justified.

They hung doctors at Nuremberg, yet surprisingly, not a single propagandist was ever tried or convicted. Waldheim went on to lead the UN where those propagandists he influenced continue to spread his hateful messages today. Hitler devised the term second hand smoke, which licensed bigotry as a national expectation. The Journalists have brought that message home with an enthusiastic roar.

In 1975 Sir George Goober, British delegate to the World Health organization presented his blueprint for eliminating tobacco use worldwide by changing social attitudes.

"..it would be essential to foster an atmosphere where it was perceived that active smokers would injure those around them, especially their families and any infants or young children who would be exposed involuntarily to EST.." Tobacco Control at the British Medical Journal an article [linked] by the editor; Chapman who indicates the hatred of the "spoiled identity" has grown beyond all control.

http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/cgi/con...

"The litmus test of a society is still, as Jefferson said, that the rights of the majority stop at the doorstep of the minority." ~ Beryl Wajsman; the last angry man.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

snowbird Anonymous

There has never been a single study showing that exposure to the low levels of smoke found in bars and restaurants with decent modern ventilation and filtration systems kills or harms anyone.

As to the annoyance of smoking, a compromise between smokers and non-smokers can be reached, through setting a quality standard and the use of modern ventilation technology.

Air ventilation can easily create a comfortable environment that removes not just passive smoke, but also and especially the potentially serious contaminants that are independent from smoking.

Thomas Laprade Thunder Bay, Ont.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

I don't understand why these people are paying to be told to stand outside. If my regualar bar, one at which I'd spent plenty of money over the years, decided, without even a law to force it, to deny me the pleasure of smoking inside, I'd be out their door within a minute. and I wouldn't be back. They can only get away with these smoking bans because smokers keep patronizing places that treat them like lepers. Wake up.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

Question: is anyone here who is against the anti-smoking ordinance against public urination? Because man, let me tell you, after a night of drinking releasing your bladder against the side of a building feels better than a cigarette. Sure, it doesn't smell great, but that's how non-smokers feel about cigarettes. And urine is sterile - so there isn't any medical reason I know of to outlaw it.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Oh Jebus, not again.

Won't somebody PLEASE think of that poor horse's corpse?

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Pavel: I'm not against public urination; I practice it frequently. The laws against it are not really health laws, but laws designed to punish the riff-raff. Anti-smoking laws are the same thing. If a majority (or even a significant minority) of bar patrons wanted smoke-free bars, they would already exist without intrusion from the government. Scott: the poor dead horse will rest in peace when I am legally able to light up in my local bar again.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Seems you'll be whining eternally. Welcome to the not-so-distant future of all public places having no-smoking ordinances.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Well, at one point, Prohibition (another law meant to criminalize the working class) was the freight train that couldn't be stopped.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Sorry, chriss, Prohibtion's not even similar.

Smoking won't be banned, there'll simply be restrictions on doing it in public (much like urination, fornication, etc). It's better that you accept it now rather than grow increasingly bitter, imo.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

"If a majority (or even a significant minority) of bar patrons wanted smoke-free bars, they would already exist without intrusion from the government."

Flip that around. If enough bar patrons want to smoke in bars, then I guess the no-smoking-in-bars laws will either not pass, or be repealed shortly.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Let's hope they are, but everyone over the age of ten knows that laws do not necessarily reflect the will of the people--they reflect the will of whoever has the most money to buy politicians.

Prohibition's very similar in that it didn't happen overnight and took years of preparatory demonization of alcohol by people who thought they were making the world a better place. "Nice" people didn't drink, although lots did secretly. Here in NY we have smokeasies, where they let you light up after 11 pm. all very hush-hush. Just like the bad old days. Smoking is a social activity and smokers should have the right to assemble and associate in public places. Not all public places, mind you , but some.
BTW, the alcohol prohibitionists are still with us and you better believe they're happy about smoking bans--they mean lots of people stop going to bars and bars close. And alcohol could very well be next in line, after trans fats. So heads up. They come for me in the morning; they come for you in the afternoon.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

You're a very paranoid person, chriss.

NY? You signed up yesterday just so you could comment on this happening in TX? Do tobacco companies pay you for this, or what?

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

If they do, the checks are all lost in the mail. Does the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation or Bloomberg "Philanthropies" pay you??

Not paranoid, just realistic.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

PS: since we here in NY have "enjoyed" the prophylactic protection of a smoking ban for last 5 years, I thought I'd offer some of our experience. Another predection: Once forced outside, smokers will congregate around entrances and where there's shelter. Antismokers will then cry that they are exposed to a "cloud" of nasty smoke for all of 3 seconds as they enter or exit.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

"Smoking is a social activity and smokers should have the right to assemble and associate in public places. Not all public places, mind you , but some." So where should it be banned?

"BTW, the alcohol prohibitionists are still with us and you better believe they're happy about smoking bans--they mean lots of people stop going to bars and bars close." I really doubt that people will stop going to bars just because they have to step outside to smoke. One of the reasons people go to bars is for the atmosphere (no pun intended) - and you can't really get that at home unless you invite a bunch of strangers to come over and pee on your bathroom towels and leave a mess everywhere.

I'm sure on day the government is going to ban something I hate. But I plan to fight back the American way - graffiti, public urination, and arson!

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Not paranoid, just realistic.

Keep telling yourself that, yankee! (j/k, mostly)

No, I don't get paid for grinning at smokers who whine about having to take it outside. If I do, I'll be sure to disclose.

Are you going to branch out and worry about other North Texas issues, or is this your only shtick? I'm sure Miko would love to keep you around.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Pavel: Well, I wouldn't mind a system where smoking was banned in most indoor public areas with allowance for some designated smoking areas. No one should have to stand outside. Bars might be a special case, since you've got places where the vast majority of the customers smoke, so why should they be relegated to a back room? But there would have to be nonsmoking area as well. That way everybody would get something.

Scott: "Yankee",huh? Well, since you're the one who started playing the regional chauvinism game, I have no qualms about playing the arrogant NYer and asking "Does anything of significance happen in North Texas, or does it just produce redneck cementheads?" BTW, if you're so all-fired "Texas", what're you doing using words like "shtick"??? Bet you're really some Yuppie transplant.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

PS: Pavel, lots of people will stop going to bars, because the "atmosphere" won't be the same. It'll be like an ice cream parlor that happens to serve alcohol.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Justin Smith Staff

I can't smoke in a outdoor public park? That's it, I'm getting my gun...

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rick Yost Verified

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get cha!

FXR, Chriss- I applaud your attempts to open the eyes of your fellow countrymen to the insidious, yet well-marketed, and seemingly insignificant surrender of their personal freedoms. Even the non-smokers are losing much more than they realize.

I hope I'm already gone the day they do see just what they have been setting themselves up for- some day they will be forced to give up a freedom they really do care about. But after years and years of such easy capitulation to the wants of the majority, nothing will be sacred to the whims of the suits of the day.

Unfortunately, I believe this dead horse will soon be dust as has been stated.

I am a smoker, and a smoking-bar owner, so I do have a stake in this topic. However, I'm not too blind to see the writing on the wall.
For myself, it's not so much the loss of the freedom to smoke- even in my own establishment. It's the ease at which this freedom is being taken away.
Alas, I'm not much of a crusader- so I will wait for the gavel to crack, and retreat back to the safety of my home where I will sit behind my locked door, with my smokes, and my gun, and do my best to retain what freedoms there are left to the minority in this swiftly changing democracy that I still love so much- but watch with a suspicious crooked eye.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

chriss: ha, the reference was due to all the Prohibition talk more than anything. Thought the "j/k" was clear - sincere apologies that you were offended. (the "mostly" was that I obviously think you're a bit paranoid)

Still chriss: But if you're serious about your question, my retort is that you're quite the hypocrite for asking considering we're having this discussion in the first place. Apparently it's been worth your time so far to worry about our bidness; do you join local sites everywhere to purport your POV on insignificant matters, or just this one?

Justin: touché

Rick: Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get cha! - literal lol, thank you sir. As I said before, maybe I've just been "stripped" of too much freedom y'all use to have to even notice, but yes - keeping it outside doesn't exactly make me feel like any rights are being stepped on.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Tracy Yost Verified

I'm not sayin' anything.....

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

It depends on the day and the issue at hand. Lately this one obsesses me just a bit. One of our great corrupt politicians, Daniel Moynihan, once said. "All politics is local". I figure if I can't seek the solace of my local bar for a beer and a smoke something is very much wrong. As for your inability to see that denying your fellow bar patrons comfort has ramifications for you, remember the old labor saying "An injury to one is an injury to all."
Rick: don't you see, that's exactly the trouble--that so many people are willing to just burrow in and hope they'll leave us with some crumbs. And people like Scott who won't see it till it hits him.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

That's heartbreaking, but smokers have been denying me comfort for years. Could these actually be the ramifications against smokers for being inconsiderate?

I extremely doubt this will start a snowball effect enslaving us all. Maybe you're not paranoid at all that freedom will take a nose-dive, especially since you're 5 years in...perhaps it's just a scare tactic? Desperate times, etc.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

So why not have a separate room for you? Or special smoke-free nights? Or let bars decide whether they'll be smoking or nonsmoking and if there's any kind of demographic supporting you, you won't have to be "discomforted"?. BTW, glad to see you're honest enough not to use the bogus "health" argument that is used to shove these things through legislatures. This isn't starting a snowball effect; it's been going on for a while--haven't you been paying attention? Our good friends in gummint can now spy on you without a warrant and even "detain" you and hold you indefintely without trial. Or send you to another country to be tortured. It's been going on since the "War on Drugs" and has escaleted ever since. Get with the program. You control people by controllng their pleasures. Adn micromanaging their personal lives. Scare tactics: you mean, like "secondhand smoke is deadlier than plutonium"?

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC Anonymous

It will be rather pleasant when all of these come in to effect. Perhaps Chriss should work on chewing tobacco to get through the couple hours without nicotine that he may have to suffer through.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

chriss, fact is that all of this has been discussed in a thread I linked to from my first comment. I actually did play the health card, but that was in retort to those crazy Canadians - my beef is more a comfort and not-smelling-like-an-ashtray thing.

If you want to gather a militia and rebel, go nuts.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

Pretty sure the effects of second hand smoking aren't "bogus", but whatever - my stance on second hand smoking has always been that I drink too heavily to worry about lung cancer, and my primary concern is not smelling bad when I get home.

As far as separate (but equal!) rooms for smokers and non-smokers, I fully support it - as long as there is a pane of glass in between them, so the two sides can glare at each other and make rude gestures.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

austinrebel Anonymous

There are smoke-easies all over Austin. The ban is very openly flouted. Many bars lost so much money over the ban they just gave up enforcing it. When the ban goes into effect in your area, I urge you to tip your servers heavily. Many of them are going to go through a period of lower income.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

DC: Actually, I smoke very little and can go for quite a while without. But I insist on smoking when I drink.

Scott: Violence is unnecessary (though I wouldn't cry too hard if somebody assassinated Mike Bloomberg). All it needs is for lazy smokers to get off their butts and make noise and boycott. My original post was about those smokers who were clueless enough to let their bar force them outside without a ban even in effect.

Pavel: No one needs to glare. One of the really evil things about this whole sick movement is that it's created a whole new criterion for hating people. I certainly don't begrudge you a smoke-free area as long as you don't begrudge me a smoking one. BTW, I guess none of you I-hate-the-smell people ever go to campfires or bonfires. The fug from them is mighty and persistent.

Rebel: Damn glad to hear that if I'm ever in Austin again I'll be able to enjoy myself. Ironic, isn't it, that the employees are the ones the bans are officially supposed to help and they're the ones that get hurt the most? Here in NY, we had a couple protests by bar workers against the ban. To no avail, of course.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC Anonymous

How about being a sport and giving the chaw a try?

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Well, I'll think about it. Did you know some smoking bans apply to chaw?!!?!?

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC Anonymous

Well, why don't you give it a shot and report back?

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

If you insist. What brand do you recommend for beginners?

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

chriss: Oh, but I so love the glaring. :(

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC Anonymous

Hmm, maybe some Skoal pouches in a nice fruity flavor like apple or peach...

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Pavel: I enjoy glaring myself.

DC: Apple, it would be. It'll have to wait till I go to Atlantic City this weekend, since I don't support NYC's war on tobacco users by paying their exorbitant taxes on tobacco products.

9 months, 2 weeks ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Rachel Skinner Verified

I can't believe so many people are against the ordinance. Basically, if you're willingly giving yourself cancer, you are stripping yourself of your "rights" to smoke inside the comfort of an eatery or bar. People are getting upset because we are denying them of the American comforts they are used to while puffing on a cancer stick they refuse to admit they can't live without. So I support the ordinance with full force. Otherwise, to me, I would be supporting people's addictions. I'll take the pink lung, thanks.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

James McFadyen Verified

wow, indoor smoking section and cigar friendly...;-)) this is a matter of invasive, big brother is watching, nanny state, politics, it should be a commercial decision for bar owners to allow or not allow smoking, and patrons to go where their preferences are met! End of story! Government local or otherwise needs to get back to real issues like policing, utilities and road care and stop wasting their time and our money on bulls$&t like this!!!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

Get back to policing what? The laws they pass, such as non-smoking ordinances?

At which point do you cross the line from "protecting" into "nannying"? Should bar owners also decide whether to allow people to shoot heroin on a bar stool, let minors drink?

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I think It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia has already covered the consequences of too much freedom. I suggest y'all take a gander.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

heeheehee! Hoohaa! I haven't laughed so hard all week! I think I officially have a crush on Scott now. Please keep this thread going...It is hilarious!!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

I sincerely hope you're a female (preferably has a job, has $99).

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

Are you trying to sell me a new Kia?

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

Is that code for some kind of interwebs proposition?

I'm kinda scared if so, since you didn't address the gender issue.

Only a matter of time before these start getting deleted, I imagine...

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

'Have a job? have $99? We can sell you a car!' Don't you listen to the radio?

Have no fear, I am all female. From birth even! It's your lucky day! :-)

Isn't annoying Orren one of the many perks of being a regular visitor here at Pegasus?

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

It's the highlight of my day, tbh.

I know the ads; I joke with my friends about that becoming a standard of mine in selecting the ladies.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Chris Olson Verified

Be honest Scott, it's no joke.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

Wow - Aim high!!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

irl it's "has a job, sustains life on her own", but you get the gist.

Good talk, y'all! Thanks for the server space, Miko!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Pavel, I drank as a "minor" and given your previous comments would be disappointed if you didn't too. "Minors" are old enough to risk life, limb and sanity in Iraq, but not to drink beer. Now what's wrong with that picture? Scott, if you think there's "too much freedom" here, you could always trade up for somehwere there isn't. FYI, Nazi Germany was one of the first modern countries to impose a smoking ban, so you see the historical comapny you keep. Rakkel: you remind me of William S. Burroughs' description of the US as a country "where no one is allowed to mind his own business" and "a nation of finks". You must be so pure and wonderful not to have any addictions or vices.
I trust none of you "pink lung" people drive--cars spew lots more crap into the air than cigarettes and they're killing the whole planet.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

Nazi Germany??? That cannot be factually accurate! I have a very distinct picture in my head of Hitler with a cigarette...or a cigar...I'm going to have to call bs on this and do a little research.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

Well, this was the best I could do. From http://historyplace.com "At age nine, he got into schoolboy mischief. He was caught smoking a cigarette by one of the priests, but was forgiven and not punished." Other sources claim that he smoked throughout his youth but never into adulthood.

There was indeed a massive anti-tobacco campaign in Germany from 1933 to 1945 (so just hang in there and you should be able to smoke at the Tavern again in about 12 years). Nicotine was a big no-no but the Fuhrer was apparently a big proponent of amphetamines. So put down your Marlboros and pick up a crack pipe!

Forgive me for doubting you Yank!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

I stopped reading this thread as soon as Godwin's law was invoked.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

...and I fell right into it! Now there go all my romantic notions of Hitler and his cigar...thanks chriss!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

http://www.startribune.com/local/1585...

"Smoking ban workaround catches on at bars across state. Having patrons become "actors" when entire bar is turned into a "stage" started as a one-night experiment 2 weeks ago, but now it's becoming a way around state law."

Wonder if we have anything similar.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Pavel: Let's hope you do!! We could use more of that spirit in our ever-more-timorous country. It sux that NY, which considers itself so avant garde didn't think of it first. Of course, the Antis will be jumping right in to stop it cause that's what they're all about...

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

From Pavel's linked article:

State legislators who championed the ban said last week that the loophole likely will be plugged and the bar theater nights will end.

What the mind of man devises, the mind of man will find a way around. But if you honestly think law-makers won't address cockamamie schemes to step around their bans, omgz tha nikoteen's got 2 yur brian!11!@

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

So are there any poor unwilling nonsmokers in attendence at these "performances"??? The stated purpose of these bans is to protect the poor helpless nonsmoker who is forced into a bar. Of course that's all BS. What happened in Chicago was instructive: one of the Big Evil Tobacco companies set up a smoker's bar (it was legal because it made most of its income from selling tobacco products). So there was one bar for smokers and hundreds (thousands?) for nonsmokers. The Anti politician who introduced the ban went ape$hit!!!! Maybe there should be a Truth in Politcs law and if a law turns out to be not about what it says it's about, it must be scrapped. And lawmakers should have better things to do than try to stop people from enjoyng themselves. Unfortunately we've become such a nation of geldings that we won't vote these clowns out of office.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC Anonymous

What happened to the chaw report?

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Patience, patience. Tomorrow I promise!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

OK, DC, the only flavor my corner deli had available was Skoal Mint(Long Cut). I thought it was a little weird and not all that enjoyable. But, to be fair, that's what I thought of my first cigarette, my first beer and my first sexual experience, so maybe I'll develop a taste, seeing as how I've got a whole tin left, no one I could give it to and I hate to waste anything. It kind of reminded me of pipe smoking, the way the taste stayed in my passages for an hour or so. But still not as dramatic or satisfying as a cig.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Scott Doyle Verified

and my first sexual experience

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC Anonymous

I think you were overreaching going for a long cut as your first try. I suggest going for the apple or peach pouches to start out.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

I'll keep that in mind.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

EdWeirdness Anonymous

So if perfume and deodorant are worse, why do you allways smell like a "slim Jim" after a night in the bars?

What about "fraternal" bars (i.e. Elks, Sons of Herman, Mystic Knights of the Sea Lodge,etc,,,)?

Since these locations operate under the auspices of a "fraternal" organization, might they not exempt themselves? Couldn't smokers designate or create a club catering to their own preferences? Maybe clubs could alternate the nights that they are open to the non-smoking public, opting for a "private smokers party" once a week? Get enough clubs in the same area working together, both smokers and non-smokers could be accomodated. Although, if they could do that, one might surmise that the sundry "private clubs" that have been beaten down by "no-smoking" would also have been capable of just saying no.

I can see how this "reasonable accomodation" might outrage some of the "no-smoking" Nancy's by doing an end run around their despotic demands, but that would make such an endeavor even more worthwhile! If its the issue of lingering smoke, get over it. Some of the bars in Dallas have so much caked on tar and nicotine that nothing less than demolition and hazardous waste disposal would suffice.

Only a moron would insist that the bar and his peers change. If you can't stand the smoke, stay out of the bar,,,,you nancy!

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

EdWeirdness Anonymous

Tell the Volpe Brothers to "build up"! Yeah, I can see it now; a rooftop deck, perhaps several stories high. All those winded smokers slogging, wheezing up and down the stairs, all those butts periodically glowing semaphores in the dark.

Or, just board up the windows. Or, move out of Dallas and deny Dallas that which they so desperately covet, tax revenues. You'll lose clientel either way, but isn't it more satisfying to do it under your own terms?

Its amazingly stupid. People move to or frequent an area of town because its "cool". But the minute they discover real estate on their property, they set about eliminating every aspect that made the community cool in the first place. If its about overall health costs to tax payers, arguably shutting down illegal immigration would provide far more generous returns to tax payers. Its probably just the fact that there are some in the community who feel duty bound to force their lifestyle choices on their fellow citizens. Get a rope,,,,,,,

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

"If you can't stand the smoke, stay out of the bar,,,,you nancy!"

To paraphrase,

"If you don't like it, you can geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet out!"

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

EdWeirdness Anonymous

I'm confused. Is Pavel advocating pissing on non-smokers or not? I don't smoke, don't care if others do, but I want to dress appropriately (galoshes).

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

I don't advocate pissing on anyone, but I can't be held liable for the actions of my penis when I'm well sloshed. And I can arc it pretty high; if you're truly worried, I would also suggest a rain slicker and one of those awesome fisherman's hats.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Ed: That strategy is great, but as these bans "progress" each one becomes more repressive and the Antis cover more "loopholes." Many recent bans forbid smoking even in private clubs and even when it's owner-run. Smoke bans aren't about protecting nonsmokers; they're about punishing smokers.

Pavel: Cute dog. So we can just go up and piss on anyone whose behavior we don't approve of?

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

PS: Amen to the "move out and deny revenue" strategy. Along those lines, I implore all of you not to visit New York. And please let the state and city tourist boards know why.

If you do visit, contact me and I'll hook you up with a few places to go.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

xdavidwattsx Anonymous

<i>PS: Amen to the "move out and deny revenue" strategy.</i>

Except that it's been shown not to work. Smoking bans have zilch impact on revenue. The Boston and NYC bar scene is alive and well after the smoking ban and is full of as many visitors as ever. Just like people didn't stop eating out in Dallas after their smoking ban was enacted.

I think you need to come to terms with the reality that smoking bans in public places are coming everywhere and not many people have a real problem with that.

9 months, 1 week ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

They do a clever trick to hide revenue loss after a ban is enacted. Here in NY they counted bars and restaurants all together (no figures released on just bars) and they started counting places that hadn't been counted before, such as fast food places and Starbucks. So--hocus pocus, presto changeo--no revenue loss. For a comprehensive account of smoking ban damage go to http://davehitt.com. Not surpisingly, it's rural areas that suffer the most and in urban places, it's neighborhood working class joints that get hit hardest. Foofy upscale places (patronized by foofy upscale people) and places with a steady influx of tourists are doing OK. As are bars that are really just part of restuarants and not watering holes in their own right. Is Amarillo an upscale community with lots of visitors? The smoking ban in Ireland has caused the death of some 600 pubs, mostly rural, and in Britain, an average of 62 close every month. Maybe these offenses to sociability will become a universal official reality everywhere, but don't forget, 90 years ago Prohibition was the freight train that couldn't be stopped. Yet it was. People will always find a way and yes, it's no surprise that the "sheeple" don't make much fuss. I saw bans come in in both New York and New Jersey and beforehand I would go to bars filled with people smoking and wonder, "Are they just gonna let them do this?" Sho'nuff.
I was a few years out of college when they raised the drinking age to 21. Nobody did much--or at least nobody did as much as they could. It sort of destroyed official campus social life, but as anyone who knows can tell you, the social life is now underground and much wilder.
But if the ban really is a rousing success, then after a year why not make it voluntary? Any bar owner would be nuts to slay the golden goose that is serving the new "Stepford" bar patron.

9 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

DC Anonymous

blah blah blah where the hell's the chaw review all ready

9 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

I really can't take anyone seriously after they say "sheeple" without being ironic. Kind of like when people say "delish", or "funderful!" and mean it.

9 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

The chaw review was several comments back. "Sheeple" is automatically ironic. If you don't think we're sheeple you haven' been paying attention. By "can't take seriously" you must mean "can't address the issues raised."

9 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

jtmbls Anonymous

As someone who is currently paying $70 (upward of $150 if not for my insurance) a month to kick this incredibly destructive habit, I am having a hard time feeling as though my rights are being trampled on. In fact, it is a welcomed intrusion. Obviously I need all the "shame on you"s I can get right now.

Blame the government if you like, but this is nothing more than a society regulating itself. I believe social shunning is a common and oft necessary tribal tool. //Did I really just channel Dwight Schrute?//

I am wondering what the average life span of a pub in Britain is to begin with. Didn't we just have 62 bars in Deep Ellum shut down? I don't think it had much to do with smoking either. For me the deal killer was all the "Yo baby wassup. You too good to speak?" I had to go through just to get to my car at the end of the night. Point being, it's probably not the best gauge as they are forever closing down and reemerging as a whole new concept.

9 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Pavel Lishin Verified

To be fair, seeing Deep Ellum for the first time in a year or so last night, it didn't seem like much of anything was re-emerging. Even the homeless population seems to have fled.

9 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

chriss Anonymous

Jtmbls: so you're one of those repugnant people who wants to quit but doesn't have the willpower, so they welcome Big Mother to help them along. 2 words and they ain't "happy birthday." Here in the Northeast we have a little bit of a history with societies regulated by social shunning. Maybe soon we can see the stocks, pillory and ducking stool reinstituted. How about a big scarlet "S" on your chest? Or, since your state is so fond of capital punishment, some nice burnings at the stake?? You most certainly did just channel Dwight. Hey, if the pocket protector fits... Maybe you have a masochistic personality and need to be shamed and punished, but I went to Catholic school and they gave me a lifetime's worth there, so I'm over it. BTW, were you driving after drinking???? Maybe there should be a Shame Brigade waiting in the parking lot to help "society regulate itself".

9 months ago ( Link to this comment | Suggest removal )

Teresa Gubbins Staff

jtmbls, in 2005, USAToday did a story on the smoking ban in Ireland, here's a quote: "The [smoking ban] has proven popular, even with smokers: 83% of Irish smokers say the law was a "good" or "very good" thing ... Nearly half of Irish smokers say the ban has made them more likely to quit ... Among Irish smokers who have quit, 80% said the law helped them give up smoking, and 88% say the ban helped them remain smoke-free."

so see, there's a happy ending to this smoking ban afte