qaggaz

I'd be happy if this showed up on my doorstep. My birdcages need new liners, and the parrots would enjoy the brightly colored ads!

Mike: thanks for providing Angela's video. It really does add some food for thought to the debate and makes me proud to be one of Angela's constituents. I do find it interesting that I find no mention of this trip on Angela's blog. Has she actually claimed responsibility over on the Observer's blog? Is there any possibility that someone else posted this in her name?

Salsa: thanks for clearing up some of the misinformation that is floating around.

jtmbls: you ask if it is "vital to our life experience to have these poor creatures in the zoo" to which I answer it is vital to the elephants' life experience. Without zoos, we would not be exposed to these elephants, and they would most likely be headed for extinction. At least with zoos, as imperfect as they are, we do have a means to preserve the species and as we learn more about them, provide better environments for them to live and breed, while at the same time allowing us all to enjoy and learn from these animals.

Kellymac: (I am not sure if you are one person, or three, or perhaps one person with three personalities?) There is a difference between fact and opinion. Examples of facts stated in this case include: the amount of land available at the sanctuary in TN, the number of vets on site at various facilities, AZA accreditation of Africam, rocking of elephants observed at Africam, and so on. Opinions include the importance of space for elephants, whether elephants should be placed in zoos for public viewing, what "rocking behavior" means in elephants.

Arguments based on fact and logic are far more compelling than those based entirely on opinion and speculation (even if it is expert opinion) because facts can be proven or disproven. You undermine your own case if the "facts" you present end up being either false or mere opinion.

This is exciting news. I admit that I took the original announcement with a grain of salt given that the best laid plans (especially in Real Estate) often fall through at the last minute. However, there is real hope with this one. Sunflower has even erected a "coming soon" sign outside the property. Hopefully we will start to see more signs of renovation in the near future.

Thanks for posting Gregg Hudson's response to your inquiry. It helps to understand both sides of this issue.

So if I understand your concerns, the primary issue with the Africam park is one of trust. Gregg Hudson, and the Dallas zoo staff, believe that Africam will honor their commitments to both the zoo and the AZA. You are concerned because some other institutions do not honor these commitments to quality animal care and the Africam facility has no verifiable record regarding quality care of African Elephants. You are also concerned that should the Africam park not provide the level of care promised there would be no way to compel them to do so since they are not within the jurisdiction of the US legal system. Is that a fair summary?

It would seem that by your argument is one of guilt by association, however when you break the argument down as a syllogism, it does not obtain. i. e.

Argument 1:

+Major premise: Some AZA accredited facilites do not follow the recommended guidelines for elephant care.

+Minor Premise: Africam is an AZA accredited facility.

+(Invalid) Conclusion: Africam does not follow the recommended guidelines for elephant care.

Argument 2:

+Major Premise: Some animals are abused without legal consequence under Mexican jurisdiction.

+Minor Premise: The Africam park is subject to Mexican jurisdiction.

+(Invalid) Conclusion: The Africam park abuses animals without legal consequence.

You seem to be assuming the worst-case scenario. I would assume, on the other hand, that the City of Dallas (by way of the Dallas Zoo) has a contract with Africam outlining Africam's rights and responsibilities regarding the ongoing care of Jenny. Mexico does have a legal system, and Dallas could file suit if Africam does not live up to the terms of the contract. This contract could specify that Africam must follow all AZA guidelines, allow regular inspections from Dallas Zoo staff to ensure compliance, and provide for specific remedies should Africam be found not in compliance.

If you were to see such a contract, would you be satisfied?

When Jus2kewl is not insulting people on online forums, he probably sits in his self-built tree hut, foraging for an all vegan diet of nuts and berries, hating all zoos and people that wear leather shoes. The rest of us, obviously inferior people, who appreciate the work in education and conservation that zoological institutions bring to us and future generations are, without a doubt, all stupid and wrong. That's why he doesn't want to engage in civil, rational discourse on this topic like other posters on this thread with differing views.

Jus2kewl,

Great ad hominum attack on Aduxxx and the AZA. Your comment that you "have been intensely involved for decades with getting zoo eles removed" has now served to completely discredit anything that you have or will say on this topic. Apparently you don't like zoos. Fine, don't go! So you know the Dallas zoo? Are you actually a resident of the City of Dallas? Do you pay taxes here? If not, please go away.

Hi Kellymac1,

Thanks for mentioning the Watani Grasslands Reserve exhibit at the NC Zoo. In addition to potentially being an alternative to the Africam park in Mexico, the exhibit itself is a great model for what the new African savanna expansion at the Dallas Zoo could be like. I wonder if they have room or the desire to take on Jenny as a loan?

While I do see the need for sanctuaries to place old, mistreated, and injured animals; I, and many others, disagree with the underlying philosophy at the The Elephant Sanctuary in TN. Specifically, I believe that public display of these magnificent animals is the only way to ensure the long term survival of these species. While I am sure that The Elephant Sanctuary does good work with the elephants in their care, ensuring species survival through breeding programs, educational outreach and simple contact between animals and the general public is important. I do think that Zoos (and Aquaria) can and should be the appropriate institutions to carry on this vital duty.

We should hold these institutions to a very high standard of care while still placing the animals on display for public viewing so that future generations can continue to learn from, and learn to respect, these animals.